To be confused as to why hiring a cleaner is seen as an indulgence?

[Gahr]

This is something that I see time and again on this site, and it is SO WEIRD. People seem to think that it is the height of luxury to have a housecleaner, and also seem to be strangely apologetic about it, offering disclaimers as to why they need one. Also, I've noticed that on threads when someone has a problem with their cleaning service, they will get several posts telling them to 'clean their own house'. Nobody would tell someone to 'service their own boiler' or 'fix their own toilet'! I don't understand it at all. I have a cleaner and I wouldn't be without her.

I think it clearly is a luxury, as others have said, because it's not necessary for survival, like food, shelter and warmth - in this context, paying mortgage/rent, bills and buying food; and it can be done by yourself without special skills. However, I do think there is a particular judgement on paying someone to clean, although in essence it's no different to getting a takeaway, getting your windows cleaned, or paying someone to mow the lawn. As others have said, there are jobs that can't be done safely and efficiently without training, and jobs that we could manage to do ourselves, but don't want to - we would prefer to have the time to do other things. And that's the luxury, having the choice. It isn't something to feel guilty about - if you have the money, you can make that choice, but it is a luxury. It's similar to people saying that private school isn't a luxury, they just choose to prioritise their children's education. But many don't have the things to choose between!

That's logically my opinion. Yet I have worked out that I could afford a cleaner at least once a month, and I would love one, but I haven't got one, because it does feel wrong to me on some level, for a lot of the reasons given above - it's a basic life skill to clean (although a paid cleaner is probably quicker and more efficient than me), it feels lazy and like I should help if I'm there, in which case I may as well do it, I shouldn't expect others to mess around in my dirt (although they are being paid and it wouldn't be layers of dirt as I would have to clean in between) and it just seems too "posh" 🤣

You’re not going to believe this op but some people have to mend their own things too 🤣
Dh and I won’t be calling a plumber out for our leaky radiator we’ll be fixing it ourselves this weekend.

😂😅😆

If this is not a piss take it belongs on the Tattle Life mumsnet roasting thread.

"Aga Saga mumsnetter perplexed that serfs can't afford staff - The poors are so peculiar darling!"

I don't hoover and mop my floors every day, is that what you do?!

I sweep the kitchen/diner (wooden floors) daily, we wipe the table and kitchen counters daily. Toilet only if it is visibly unclean - i.e. everyone deals with their own skid marks.

Everything else is left for the cleaner once a week. She does a full hoover/mop, bathroom clean, more thorough kitchen clean

I also agree that good cleaners are absolutely skilled. Many come from hotel training, where they are trained how to clean well and fast.

My cleaner is AMAZING. I can clean to her standard but it will take me a lot longer, because it is a skill which she practices daily and I'd practice once a week.

Oh and by the way. Lots of people - especially young people/young professional- have cleaners because they live in shared flats, so instead of flatmates arguing about rota of cleaning (not fun part, done that) people share the cost of the cleaner. They often can't afford to buy or rent their own place without flatmates but they pool resources to pay for a cleaner. Is this a luxury in this case? No.

i don’t like cleaning and have better things to spend my time on like doing overtime and getting paid a bit more - or relaxing / seeing friends & family.
But I don’t like strangers in my home when I’m not here so even though I probably could afford it, I just have to do it myself and the place is sometimes less clean & tidy than I’d like 🤷‍♀️

I'm not going to be confused why people treat a periodic cook as a luxury but I share OP's bafflement at how much disdain using a cleaner (or a cook) it causes at mumsnet, or in the Guardian's comments.

I doubted you'd be confused, it doesn't seem difficult.
As for the "disdain", I don't get that either.
But I can understand why some people see domestic help as a luxury.
Anything can be a luxury if you find it hard or impossible to afford.
If you want to debate your following point about whether using or not using a cleaner is seen as indicating the presence or absence of moral superiority, maybe better to do it with someone who has expressed that point of view rather than me.

Its neck and neck which one wins
Sex worker or forcing children up chimneys 🤣🤣😅

I'd have a cleaner if I could find a skilled reliable one!

The people I've hired so far sadly haven't been very good, whereas I'd like to employ someone who has knowledge on how best to clean different surfaces, get stains out, polish wooden surfaces nicely rather than someone who just drags around a hoover less well than I do (and damages my house in the process)! I hired someone to clean my oven for me recently as a treat and they managed to stain my cabinets and also eat away at the paint beneath the oven 🫠

Where are people finding the good cleaners as I've had no luck with agencies, sole traders or referrals so far!

Yes it’s very easy. No qualifications required but I suppose you do have to be a bit skilled in spotting mess and what needs cleaning but that’s never eluded me.

Well I'm not debating it all with you personally, I'm debating a question posed by OP. which was about luxury and disdain/moral superiority.

And right on these pages there is a person who compares using cleaners to using sex workers, so these people do exist.

I have always done my own cleaning, mum used to come over on a Saturday to help with ironing and she laughed at how quickly I could clear up. My husband came home one Saturday mid afternoon and added if I'd moved the bed. It was a standing joke between us that I moved furniture and rearranged rooms. Unfortunately I was given thexnow banned Astra Zeneca vaccine which made me ill and I'm now disabled. So I have a ckeaner in once a week
When mum was ill she had a cleaner and so did I. Its a useful job for muns to fit in whilst their children are at school. I didnt mind children coming with their mums as I worked from home. One cleaner's chikdren loved coming and helping me cook. I used to love cake making with them and we'd use some cake batter to make individual cakes which they loved decorating. I taught them how to weigh items etc as well as hand washing etc.

The sex worker point has ruined my Ocado delivery today.

Mohammed in the Cherry Van will be arriving soon and I’m wondering if he and my neighbours will think I’m using him like a sex worker.

I don't see it as an 'indulgence', it makes sense to me. Having someone to clean frees you up to do other things. If you don't you get bogged down with household chores which are a drag.

Anyway, it's nobody else's business.

I'm not going to say that it's misogynistic to celebrate professionalising their manual domestic labour, but I will say it's unambitious.

There was a lot of interesting feminist theory in the Wages for housework campaign in the 70s. Really take some time out to examine how it speaks to women's labour today.

I agree with you OP - I wouldn't be without my cleaner. Why should I clean the bathroom my husband uses when he makes such a mess in it (and no, it wouldn't occur to him to clean it himself!).

It's an indulgence because not everyone can afford one. I'm speaking as someone who could afford a cleaner in my 20s. It meant that I could spend time enjoying my evenings and weekends, rather than cleaning my apartment. Now I'm a 40 year old divorced mum and although I'm not struggling financially, I can't justify the expense when I have so many other financial commitments. Unless you're fairly well off, hiring a cleaner isn't going to be priority for most people.

I’m here for the women whose public sector pensions are £50,000 a year!

Bloody hell. I thought my FiL’s hefty police pension was crazy money.

I wonder how much money annually the public sector is paying out in pensions? And what pensions their cleaners will get?

ETA: ‘Public sector pensions constitute a £1.4 trillion unfunded liability – equal to 45% of GDP and almost half the size of the official national debt.’

I'd love to have a cleaner and if I could afford it I would and wouldn't feel guilty about it.
Unfortunately bills, food and clothes for my kids come first. Being a carer to DS means only DH is working so any cleaning is down to me.

"I regard general cleaning up after yourself is a basic part of being a human and that turning it into commoditised labour is vulgar and exploitative. Shitting in a toilet then getting someone else to scrub the stains? Disgusting and demeaning. (And, yes, historically labelled as women's domestic labour)."

Read the thread.

Oh, and to be clear, cleaners are indeed a luxury/indulgence. Always.

Yes, sorry Trinny all the "oh buts" and "well no becauses" you're desperate to spout won't change that.

Cleaners are always, with no exceptions, a luxury indulgence.

And if you pretend not to understand that simple fact, you're a cockwomble of the highest order.

But the irrefutable fact that they are indeed a luxury is not to say people shouldn't have that luxury if they want to. Modern life is filled with luxuries.

However, let's be clear - pretending you don't think having a cleaner is an indulgence and a luxury lies somewhere between vomit inducingly sickening and hilariously, cluelessly, breathtakingly privileged.

OP, you're either having a laugh or you're rather pathetic. And either way, it's not important, so I'll be off.

Fair enough.
Perhaps you could just generally debate without @ing me with long posts about disdain/moral superiority or whether some people think cleaners are like sex workers, now we seem to have finished our small conversation about what can be seen as a luxury or not.
(I actually think we agree!)

None of my family and friends have a cleaner. It’s not that unusual not to have one. In my world it is a privilege to be able to afford one! Many cleaners earn more than my £15 an hour NHS wage.

All my friends have one, and while we are comfortable, we are not wealthy

Wealthier than any of my friends, none of whom can afford a cleaner.

I'm not a cleaner now but I have been. I'm glad people want to pay cleaners- it kept me earning when my daughter was very little.