To be confused as to why hiring a cleaner is seen as an indulgence?

[Gahr]

This is something that I see time and again on this site, and it is SO WEIRD. People seem to think that it is the height of luxury to have a housecleaner, and also seem to be strangely apologetic about it, offering disclaimers as to why they need one. Also, I've noticed that on threads when someone has a problem with their cleaning service, they will get several posts telling them to 'clean their own house'. Nobody would tell someone to 'service their own boiler' or 'fix their own toilet'! I don't understand it at all. I have a cleaner and I wouldn't be without her.

I have not used child labour (or forced labour) as cleaners, not the same argument at all.

I don't think it's an indulgence, in fact it can be extremely practical to have a cleaner. But it is something that not everyone can afford.

It's because it's traditionally been unpaid women's work! Same as childcare/having a nanny etc. People see these as things women should "just do" and not as actual work, so it seems ridiculous (to some) that you pay for it.

It's disguised sexism. Of course cleaning is "work" same as working at a job, and so is childcare really. I have a cleaner and am happy to have them 👍

I think do think misogymy is at the route of it as its traditionally seen as womens work which is undervalued.
Actually cleaning to a high standard and keeping on top of everything is skilled work imo.
But you are fortunate if you can afford a cleaner but youre right it should be seen as no different to outsourcing other jobs such as gardening, decorating, window cleaning, car cleaning, dog walking etc.

I dread to think what you do to your toilet that means fixing the plumbing for the toilet yourself is easier that sticking some toilet cleaning fluid down it and running a brush around the bowl

Or that cleaners aren't bright enough to be doing a 'proper' job?

So do the 'anti' cleaners brigade ever have their groceries delivered? After all, you're paying for someone to gather your shopping for you and someone else to bring it to you - surely you can do that yourself?

It doesn't help, no. Why criticise people for being able to afford something that others can't? Why the hate? I can't afford to go to Michelin starred restaurants but I wouldn't criticise those who do.

It's internalised misogyny- a belief thst women shoukd do fomenting duties.

Cleaners need to earn a living too. My cleaner earns more than me but if all her clients stopped using her she'd be out of a job.

I've zero intention of feeling guilty for having a cleaner or for being able to have one which is basically what's happening here.

That's my choice. Other people's choices are different, as in your post.

It's the same argument.

"We can't stop this practice because otherwise these employees will have no jobs."

What a silly post, I don’t know a single person who would slag someone off for having a cleaner. If anyone has anything negative to say about you having one it’s not because they don’t agree with cleaners, it’s your ridiculous wide eyed.. I thought it’s what everyone does, there’s no privilege at all in being able to afford this.
Of course there is and you no it, and if you don’t open your eyes and take a look around.. There
are families working 50 plus hours a week who can’t afford to put their heating on, and there have been for as far back as I can remember, unless
you’re Kate Middleton you wouldn’t have missed this.

And it's pretty lazy to buy food anyway, you should really be growing your own not exploiting supermarket workers

I have almost always had a cleaner, even when I was studying as I hate cleaning so much. No guilt here but even I with my hatred of all domestic tasks knows it’s non essential unlike food, water and housing. I do not have one now purely because I couldn’t find a good enough one to replace my long term cleaner.

My family were anti communist as their home country suffered under it.

Fil was one of those people who would have a go himself before it would ever occur to him to pay someone else, and as a teen dh learned how to plumb, install heating, service a car, put in windows, build a garage, replace a flat roof, plaster, basic capentry and he went on to qualify as an electrician. Now he wears a suit, taps at a computer and pays other people to do those jobs without a second thought.

He can clean a toilet too but sees absolutely no reason why he should when he can afford not to and would rather spend his spare time doing something else.

I believe in equality, and while I feel the weight of judgement about employing a cleaner, I recognise it as the misogyny it is.

I’m more bothered that I don’t understand enough about the other stuff to recognise when I’m being taken advantage of by a tradesperson.

There was a point we couldn’t afford any of the above. I absolutely appreciate the luxury of being able to afford to hire other people. And it’s supporting local businesses. I don’t think any service provider would prefer you did it yourself. Why would I think a cleaner would prefer I didn’t employ them - it’s deeply disrespectful to act as if they’re doing something shameful.

I know a cleaner is a luxury, (I don't currently have one, but have in the past) but everyone has a right as to how they choose to spend their money. If you have the money, you can afford the designer clothes, the posh cars, the botox, whatever you think necessary and is within your budget. I see people on the shopping threads talking about spending what I consider silly money on a dress, a bag, or a pair of shoes, but they don't get self-righteous remarks saying "Why don't you just buy one from Primark!"

To be fair, it is a rather old fashioned term.

Click on Show quote history and you should be able to find the original point, which had something to do with employed labour being allowed to judge the motivations of their employer.

I think it was you that derailed it.

Yes my husband Is for work. He is a engineer. We also put the heating in ourselves (although oil not gas)so know every inch of it. FIL is a plumber so also passed those skills down to him. Whilst I know not everyone is going to have these skills obviously. It is more likely those not able to afford a cleaner may also have trade knowledge or family members In trades so to keep cost down will share knowledge and trades with eachother.

More needs must rather than virtuous. @Gahr

Unless there's disability involved, adults are capable of cleaning their home. Paying to do something even children can do is certainly not a necessity, it's an extra.

Your guilt over paying for an extra that improves your life is your problem, not those who see cleaners as an extra.

I clean my own toilet, actually. That isn't what I mean by 'cleaning' at all. I mean getting my home looking really nice, which isn't as 'unskilled' as people on here seem to think.

nobody would look down on your DH or DS if they got a cleaner though. It's only women who must dust their own shelves.

Totally agree with this.
Absolutely fine to employ help (or have regular manicures or whatever) but a bit foolish to pretend that you can't believe there are many people who can't do so and would see it as a luxury.
I can't believe anybody is that uneducated or unempathetic these days however privileged they are (or, often, are not) irl.

A cleaner is a luxury in the sense that for most people their services aren’t necessary for survival, but I also know many average income families who are happy to splurge on an expensive phone every few years, have high tech TVs, Netflix, Amazon Prime, a gym membership etc but will act like hiring someone to clean is a cardinal sin. If it’s what you choose to spend your spare cash on then you shouldn’t be more ashamed than spending it on Amazon. At least that money is going directly to someone local in your community without a third party skimming a huge percentage off the top first.

It's just a matter of what you value to spend your money on. I think people often think a cleaner is on top of everything else they want, not as part of it. Assuming you're not on the bread line, I think it's probably true that anyone could afford a cleaner but would probably have to forego other things they spend their money on. Some people prioritise beauty products above it, some prioritise certain foods, some using their car over walking or public transport, some on a hobby. But if you think a cleaner is what you want then you may have to make sacrifices elsewhere.

No, my response was the OP’s ‘confusion’ at how some people see having cleaners as a luxury.

My point was that many people are less well off, so would definitely see it as a luxury.

Thank you!! Yes, this is exactly my point and you've made it very well.