To wonder what the future of Girlguiding is.

[Skippythebeercan]

I have run a Brownie unit for many years, and have seen the decline of Girlguding, we have lost so many units and leaders to the point locally our organisation is probably less than half the size it was 10 years ago and is going to shrink again with the loss of more leaders and therefore units imminently. There is a huge disconnect between national Girlguiding leadership and grass roots guiding.

I now wonder what the future holds for the organisation, I personally value the girl only space and think it is important for girls to have this. But, I can see that being lost. A friend suggests she thinks we may start to admit boys and loose our single sex status, I personally think that we may end up merging with the Scouts - both organisations have their differences but do share a founder and many fundamentals, plus I do think each organisation could learn something from the other.

I would be interested in other views on how the organisation may evolve - it may well disappear altogether - possibly sooner rather than later.

I am hoping this thread doesn't become about the trans issue, I appreciate it is divisive but there are other threads. Law suits and this very issue have certainly contributed to Girlguiding's significant image problem on both side of the argument, but there are plenty of other threads about this issue.

What comes next is:
either GG goes back to its charitable status and properly stays all girls, including making any males leave by Easter or at the end of the summer,
or it goes mixed sex (and I think will die if it does this as people will just do scouts instead
or it doubles down on its 'girls only but include a few boys' stance, opens itself to expensive law suits, and dies as it runs out of money and the parents of girls decide the HQ leaders aren't fit for purpose

(I do also get the impression that the current badge scheme is a bit full of worthiness and not enough fun so maybe that needs a new look too.)

Trouble is by trying to appease the trans rights activists they're still pissed them off because they have to adhere to that little old pesky issue called THE LAW. The TRAs have a screaming tantrum and leave.

Then women see this pandering, realise which side of the fence Girlguiding is really on, say bugger that and leave too.

Girlguiding goes under and yet again another victim of the "if I can't have it no one will" attitudes of these men who can't bear for women and girls to have anything for themselves. They'll move onto muscling their way into the next thing without a care, and the girls will have one less thing that's just for them in the world.

By ‘trans kids’ I assume you mean boys. No one thinks GG should exclude girls who identify as boys (though other girls must not be made to pretend she is a boy).

The name Girl Guides exists for an important reason. Introducing males into the mix changes the essence of what it means to be a Girl Guide and turns it into a mixed-gender organization. If that occurs, we might as well dissolve the Girl Guides and merge with the Scouts. If Girl Guides face a decline, we can point to those pushing for the inclusion of boys as the cause. We should be preserving the unique identity of Girl Guides for future generations.

Big waiting lists where I live too. If they had more leaders they could run more groups. They absolutely do not have any issue attracting members. Becoming mixed sex would ruin their USP and it would be the end. DD only went because it was girls only. They do not need males to survive.

My friend was a leader, it was actually part of a teaching job she had at one point. She then chose to join a local group when she changed jobs. She then left because it is so badly managed. The actual structure and support and how their IT work is rubbish, everything takes much longer than it should.
There are clearly some people paid to run GG and they should be putting the effort into better admin than trying to redefine who their members are.
It’s fine having organisations run with volunteers but there needs to be good support and you need to make them feel valued. That’s their failing.

Funny how often people refer to ‘banning trans people’ are actually meaning banning males from female spaces. You see it in the press time and again. The reason why no one cares about females who identify as males is because they are female. It is just misogyny.

You don't like girls and women do you. And you do like regressive stereotypes.

I’m a woman with a daughter . I have experience of all girls schools, brownies and guides and the atmosphere can be pretty toxic. I’m not alone in thinking that.

It won't merge with Scouts. Culturally they are very different. The Scouting Association actually advises against shared arrangements with Guides unless they are pre-existing because of the number of issues there are. (I have this in writing over a matter a few years ago!).

If Guides fails and folds some units may become Scout new groups but they will be under Scouting leadership. There will be no merger. There is no benefit to scouting to do this. Old guide leaders will be welcome to join as Scout leaders and guides to become scouts but it will be on Scouting terms as Scouts.

Guidings residential centres are expensive to run and manage compared with the more basic Scouting sites and are not particularly compatible with Scouting.

The Guiding permitting system is a fucking farce. It results in Scouts taking guiding groups out because it's impossible to get a permit. And it's bloody hard enough to get Scouting permits.

It is the leadership and management of guiding that is the problem. Why would Scout have any interest in taking on that?

That's fine then. You and your daughters don't need to join any single sex organisations.
But just because you don't like them, doesn't mean they should all be disbanded thus removing the option for those who do want them, does it?

There are plenty of mixed sex organisations. GG was founded as single sex. It is(/was) its USP over Scouts.

Why can't girls have things just for them?

But if GG wants to go mixed sex, it can, provided it is open about it.

A daughter who believes in being defined by regressive sexist stereotypes…

But if GG wants to go mixed sex, it can, provided it is open about it.

It would need to change its charitable objectives.

But it can do that if it wants to.
Better than what has been happening in recent years.

Join Scouts then, it's mixed sex.

My unit is massively oversubscribed, and we currently have 4 young leaders as well. In my region we have recently opened a thriving ranger unit.
we lost leaders in Covid, but demand has never changed.
i suspect there must be a lot of regional variation.

Hmmm not at all. Loving the hypocricy- seems to be fine and dandy to sterotype boys and trans kids labelling them all as abusers and rapists.

Funny how you only think boys can be ‘trans’

I went to Brownies as a little girl and adored it! I did a few trial sessions at Guides and found I was suddenly amongst snotty teenage girls in different cliques who couldn’t be bothered with an 11 year old trailing about after them. I was quickly isolated (my other brownie friends had moved up to different groups) and the leaders did nothing to try and help with this. I gave up after a few weeks as I could get enough mean girls at school without seeing them in my free time too. The few sessions I did at Guides also seemed to be much more directed at “go outside and entertain yourselves” rather than any kind of activity I’d come to enjoy in Brownies

I agree with this - as with many youth groups, there's a lack of leaders. Parents these days want their children to take part in many activities, but don't have the time, or more likely the inclination, that they once did to volunteer to make the activities happen.

Many clubs will have long waiting lists - as a cub leader, I know we do, as do our beavers and scouts. One of our beaver leaders also runs brownies and guides, and also has waiting lists. When my DH was a youth football coach, he could have had three squads, the waiting list was so long, but no parents supposedly had the time to help out to make it happen (despite standing on the sidelines every Saturday, chatting and watching their kids play).

I agree that, on the whole, the trans issue in guiding is a much bigger thing on mumsnet that it is in real life.

Waiting lists for both guides and scouts have been on the increase, but if there's not enough leaders, then there's nothing can be done about it. I agree with the PP poster who said that sometimes it's pressure from parents, or a perceived lack of support from above, that means leaders will leave, and are often not replaced.

I agree that, on the whole, the trans issue in guiding is a much bigger thing on mumsnet that it is in real life… …or a perceived lack of support from above

These two issues are not unrelated. The leadership is more concerned with an ideology that forces men in female spaces and allows men with clear fetishes into leadership positions, than with safeguarding and effective management.

Can you quote where someone alleged this? I must've missed it.

Males are the safeguarding risk doesn't mean all men are rapists. That's a very silly conclusion to come to. Why on earth do you think single sex spaces primarily exist? (Clue: its not so we can share make up tips or have pillow fights)

Can you just clarify where this has been alleged?
I can't see it anywhere on the thread.

Our unit is thriving.

These two issues are not unrelated. The leadership is more concerned with an ideology that forces men in female spaces and allows men with clear fetishes into leadership positions, than with safeguarding and effective management

I'd love to see some actual figures on this. I would think that the number of leaders leaving due to a trans issue is somewhat small, when compared to those leaving due to other issues - too much expected of them, too much paperwork, too much moaning from parents, been doing it too long ! I'm not saying that there won't be some leaders that have left over the trans issue, but I suspect it's much less of a problem than mumsnetters would like to believe.

After all, there's a similar problem in Scouts, where trans isn't really an issue, while recruiting leaders and retaining them is a big issue. The average beaver/cub/scout leader stays for approx 2 years. Many will join and leave again with their children. I suspect it's similar in Guides.

Many girls are leaving our local guide unit. My daughter did it for a short while and I’m still in the group chat. It’s just dull. They don’t do any camps, the most exciting thing they do is bowling. Last summer they had an evening at the local guide outdoor centre. The centre has loads of activities. Our unit went for a walk. The normal activities are lower to mid primary school crafts.

I asked if they needed volunteers but they don’t- they have enough volunteers. My daughter is waiting until she’s 12 to join cadets but the local Scout group is thriving. Her friend does it and they do loads of fun stuff