'Taxes are the price we pay for a civilised society'

[Bargepole45]

Having just paid an enormous tax bill, I frankly am fed up with hearing this. There are lots of civilised countries that have a far lower tax burden than the UK. It's just a form of blackmail designed to make contributors believe that there is no other way other than to pay sky high taxes to subsidise people's crap life choices.

Have too many kids and can't afford them? No problem, the state steps in. Have a terrible lifestyle and don't look after your health at all? No problem, the NHS will treat you. Spent all your money with wild abandon and have nothing left to pay for your care when you get old? Don't fret, the state will fund the same care home as someone that has saved all their life.

Don't people understand that these 'safety nets' just facilitate reckless behaviour? We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making. I say this as someone from a background where I didn't have much money and I am so fed up with people pretending that poor people don't know that an apple is healthier than a chocolate bar or that it's a good idea to actually attend school. It's insulting and disempowering to keep making excuses for people that simply aren't incentivised to make different, better choices.

Which country has the best model with regards to taxes do you think?

I can’t think of a truely civilised society that doesn’t help its poor weather they get there through poor judgement or just bad luck

I see a lot of low tax economies built on abusing others - that isn’t civilised by my meaning of the word

I don’t think many people don’t know an apple is healthier - there do seem to be people who don’t know that £ for £ chocolate gives you more calories and more joy.

There are people who don’t understand the impact of extreme poverty because they have never been there and have limited empathy and imagination

higher tax economies have more equal societies and happier healthier populations even if the very rich are not as rich. That’s part of being civilised to me. Looking after the many. Not just the few

apologies for spelling - the phone isn’t being very helpful this morning

Here we go - yet another benefits bashing thread. I’m sufficiently sensible to realise that my taxes pay for a very wide range of public services, some of which don’t directly benefit me, like education.

We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making.

And what exactly would that look like when, to take your examples, someone can't afford to feed their children, someone is ill or in pain through poor choices, or someone can't afford to pay for elder care?

What's your point? Do you think I don't realise our taxes pay for a wide range of public services? I never suggested I needed to directly benefit from them all.

This isn't about that. It's about the fact that the tax burden is at record levels and it's clear that it is driving perverse incentives. Why work harder if you are going to be taxed into oblivion? Why in fact work at all of a life on welfare is more lucrative and requires less work and effort?

So which country’s tax model do you think works the best?

We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making

A huge problem is housing costs, have young people deliberately chosen fewer council properties & high rents/costs plus wage stagnation?

What's your definition of a civilised society then? Something like US, perhaps? Low(er) tax burden, no universal healthcare, no social support network at all? How's all that working out for them right now? Did they all suddenly become high-earning citzens who eat healthily, attend school, treat each other with respect?

Or, maybe, we are not making enough effort to look at biopsychosocial reasons for poverty, obesity and lack of school attainment?
I grew up in a socialist country. It had a lot of problems. A lot. Do you know what else it had? Universal free childcare so my mother could return to work and focus on her career. Free tertiary education. Universal free school meals so nobody went hungry and could focus on learning. Free after-school clubs and youth clubs for nominal fees. Reasonably priced public transport. Reasonably priced cultural events so, even living in relative poverty, my mum and I could afford to go to theatre, ballet and opera several times a year.
You may think this is all frivolous for a "feckless single mother" but my mother worked very very hard, long hours and studied at uni as a mature student at the same time. And she could only drag us out from poverty because there were social structures in place to support her.

This isn't about that. It's about the fact that the tax burden is at record levels and it's clear that it is driving perverse incentives

An ageing population of puts more strain on the tax system.

Doubt op will answer that as it’s just another benefit bashing thread.

There isn’t any link between working harder and paying more taxes.

Snd if the work needs doing, you deciding to go part time just frees up a post for someone else you are not unique and super special and irreplaceable

The hardest working people in our society today are not on the higher tax rates

when I got big pay rises I wasn’t working harder - I was changing focus but I didn’t work harder. I recognise my luck in having the right kind of mind that is rare enough to command a premium

It simply could mean that you don't get equal access to everything and in some cases preferential access.

So for example using a clear example, currently a family with three children could be around £20k a year better off not working than if they were working. So using your logic, would reducing the benefits of the non working family by £20k mean that the kids would starve? If this is the case then why aren't we seeing all the children in working families with three kids starving?

Why work harder if you are going to be taxed into oblivion

I do agree that the cliff edges are a problem as are the frozen tax bands.

I agree with you. Obviously taxes need to be paid but currently in the UK, levels are ridiculous. Workers are being rinsed to pay for a nice lifestyle for those who don't want to. Labour always do this.

Annoying on a personal level but it's also screwing the economy and leading to an exodus of our kids, particularly youngish highish earners. To be replaced with guess who? More net recipients of other people's money. We are in a doom loop.

So for example using a clear example, currently a family with three children could be around £20k a year better off not working than if they were working.

And what benefits are in the above calculation?

Why are you making things up?

Our taxes have been kept low this in turn has kept wages low for the lower paid. Wages have risen far more for higher earners than those on basic wages for years now.

If governments were a little less concerned about upsetting those in the upper middle bracket and higher earners we would not have such a ridiculous situation as we do now where so many people are having to rely on benefit top ups after their wage

That now more people are in a situation where they are living month to month you would think more people would be sympatric to how many have lived for years but unfortunately so many are caught up in this idea that only those that work hard get paid well

https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/newsroom/post-budget-research

yes they are because its utter bollocks

Could you link to this calculation and show how you've arrived at those figures?

I strongly disagree with the idea that the state should leave people to fend for themselves when it comes to health and welfare. Some people are underprivileged; some people are unlucky; and some people do make very bad choices, but we still shouldn't leave them high and dry.

Incidentally, I find it interesting how many people will roundly condemn people for maybe not looking after themselves health-wise and it leading to the requirement for expensive medical care; yet when it comes to active people taking part in sports that have an inherent risk of danger to them, nobody ever seems to criticise them when the NHS has to fix them up again after enthusiastic sessions lead to injuries.

That said, I do agree that the government spends an enormous amount of taxpayers' money on wholly wasteful and unnecessary things. You will notice that it's always "But if people don't pay those taxes, there will be no schools or hospitals" but never "But if you don't pay, how could we fund lavish and dubious expenses for MPs, commit to enormous white elephants like HS2 or keep the royal family in obscene luxury?"

So what country do you think has the best tax model that we could emulate?

I’m not sure how many different ways I can ask this? From your research, which country has the most fair tax model?

That was debunked some time ago. Try harder.

Yes and there would be more of those taxes to go on those things if the benefits bill were cut.

I do sometimes wonder why people make like an ostrich and pretend that there aren't a sizeable chunk of people playing the system.

Yes, there are many who should have benefits-before you start with the "whataboutery" and there are just as many who shouldn't.

Hope that helps.

Countries that have significantly lower levels of taxation either have another major source of income, such as the Arab states with oil, or they have made conscious state investments with their oil money (Norway) .

The UK's short sighted govts of all colours just spent our oil money.

Other countries have lower standards of free education, health and social care.

We all knew Covid would have to be paid for. We can't shut down an economy for months on end and not expect a deficit. The NHs and the treasury are still catching up but this situation will pass.

If you have a huge tax bill, you have a huge income to go with it so I have little sympathy. If you feel that strongly, resign, give up your house and car and holidays and enjoy a life on benefits. 🙄