'Taxes are the price we pay for a civilised society'

[Bargepole45]

Having just paid an enormous tax bill, I frankly am fed up with hearing this. There are lots of civilised countries that have a far lower tax burden than the UK. It's just a form of blackmail designed to make contributors believe that there is no other way other than to pay sky high taxes to subsidise people's crap life choices.

Have too many kids and can't afford them? No problem, the state steps in. Have a terrible lifestyle and don't look after your health at all? No problem, the NHS will treat you. Spent all your money with wild abandon and have nothing left to pay for your care when you get old? Don't fret, the state will fund the same care home as someone that has saved all their life.

Don't people understand that these 'safety nets' just facilitate reckless behaviour? We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making. I say this as someone from a background where I didn't have much money and I am so fed up with people pretending that poor people don't know that an apple is healthier than a chocolate bar or that it's a good idea to actually attend school. It's insulting and disempowering to keep making excuses for people that simply aren't incentivised to make different, better choices.

I live in Belgium. UK taxes are not high. 40% rate here starts at about 25k euros.

Exactly. The current topping up means that tax payers are paying for organisation's payroll. Utter madness. Especially when big companies are making a fortune.

I genuinely have no problem with paying the levels of tax we do, DH pays in the top band and I own a small business, we probably pay about 100k in income tax between us. I feel like the contract is broken though because we don't have a civilized society. If my kids need an ambulance I don't know that one will be available, I recently sat with my mother on a chair in a&e for 18 hours before she was properly seen, turned out she had sepsis and nearly died. I can't drive down the road without avoiding potholes, I recently attended he funeral of someone who committed suicide while on the 6 month "urgent list" for mental health support.

The problem is that taxes aren't going on infrastructure and services, they are going on national debt and a thoroughly unsustainable welfare bill that only gets worse as the economy gets worse and the majority of jobs pay so badly compared to the inflated cost of living that people need in work benefits to top them up.

Some people will always be able to contribute more, and I'm happy to do so for a civilised society, but that isn't what we're getting.

Yes it is a benefits bashing thread but it is a bit more subtle than some have been.
We need these Threads to remind us that the generosity of the Labour Government to the feckless of Benefits Street is financed by families where two people are working to earn little more than the deliberately unemployed are handed without condition. Roll on the next election.

There really are loads of families with 3 plus DC. About 15% of families - 1.2 million families.

From ONS based on 2021 census.

And FWIW I think disability payments should be means tested.

Not necessarily!

There are situations on which you are worse off (removal of 30 free hours and tax free childcare) - and rates of 60-80% created by loss of personal allowance / student loan / removal of child benefit etc at various points.

This is what people are increasingly doing. They are reducing hours, retiring early and frankly just not trying as hard. Why would people battle on through difficult work conditions and often health challenges to see such large chunks of money go to the taxman? Look at our productivity figures and economic inactivity data to see that we are incentivising the wrong behaviours.

Alternatively emigrating to lower tax countries is an increasingly popular option. Statistics show this too.

Be very careful of shooting the golden goose. People with money and earning potential have options other than to stay working in the UK and be taxed to the hilt.

@FancyEagle I don’t think 15% is loads and they won’t all be on benefits…

It's called "the burden of proof" and it is on the person who originally proposed a hypothesis, which is you.

You were the one who brought up research. My first post just asked what countries to you think have gone the right way about it.

You were the one who posted the arbitrary research link, again which I have never asked for.

I’ve not asked you for research, I’m just acknowledging you must have done some to come up with your statement amount being better off on benefits, which you had. I cannot see how that is controversial.

I reiterate, I am not asking for your research, just a name of a country that you think has a good mix of tax/benefits. It’s really not a difficult question. Tax is complex and I think we all know it’s just not a case of just reducing benefits or increasing spending for local councils. That’s why I’m interested to hear who you think has got it right and how we can look to a version of it to help the UK.

@Swissmeringue

This is exactly how I feel .

Gotta make sure that those not working have a lifestyle not dissimilar to those working a minimum wage job - only fair innit!

A silly and glib response and I wager, a response from someone who enjoys benefits or who doesn't pay very much in taxes.

Naturally, I await to be corrected and hear that you work 99 and a half hours a week and pay £ 312,000 and 43 pence in taxes.

Alas, though more and more people-especially those on the minimum wage-are coming to this conclusion that it is better to give up full time work,

I agree with you. I think taxes should be spent on everyone - A lot of what is happening is a poor distribution of funds...

I don't agree with local authorities paying crazy money for SEND kids to get taxies to expensive private schools.
I don't agree with asylum seekers being put up in hotels and given spending money.
I don't agree with people opting out of work because they chose to have loads of kids.
I don't agree with local authorities paying insane money to private care homes for the elderly...
I do not agree with in-work benefits! Companies should pay their staff... not tax payers..
I don't agree with privatised rail, roads, water...

It's total mismanagement.

Look at our productivity figures and economic inactivity data to see that we are incentivising the wrong behaviours

Productivity has been shit for years, it’s not new.

This is the problem too many people live for the moment and never think about tomorrow and it is getting worse. Applies to having kids, many think everything from potty training, buying food and a roof over their head is the tax payers duty.

Large dose of karma coming their way.

Most people on benefits are in full time work. It’s not their fault that their full time salary is insufficient to live. Even if they were able they get a “better job” you’re still acknowledging that there are jobs that need doing that pay insufficient salaries to meet their basic needs. Should woman be forced to stay in abusive relationships so they’re not forced to rely on benefits?

If a person is relying on the state to pay for their care in old age they will be given a very basic care package or put into the most affordable care home which will have little resemblance to some of the private homes. Both will be staffed with carers on minimum wage and relying on universal credit to top up their income.

believe it or not, not everyone has ready access to a supermarket. Many people do not have access to a car and would rely on public transport to get there. Imagine a single mother, working while her children are at school, uses public transport to get to work etc. the only time she can get to
the supermarket is at the weekend but the actions costs of all of them on public transport make it unaffordable coupled with the fact that even if she did go to the supermarket she can’t carry back enough food for the week for them all so she’s forced to rely on the local convenience store which has limited choice, as well as being overpriced

Come on, op, you’ve just paid a huge tax bill so you must have a decent job and a reasonable level of intelligence to do that job. Employ a bit of critical thinking and have a bit of empathy. Poverty is fucking hard work and nobody actively chooses it!

Don't be so ridiculous. We are not in a court of law, it is an opinion forum. If you disagree then you are at liberty to state an alternative opinion. I don't need to 'prove' anything and neither do you.

I live in Belgium. UK taxes are not high

high earners on PAYE pay similar amounts to other countries. Lower & middle earners pay less but a big issue is high housing costs.

Should be minimal subsistence levels only.

I never understand the “we’ll take our money and leave” argument.

This isn’t a train station, you don’t need to announce your departure. If you want to take your cash and go live somewhere else, off you pop.

FWIW - I pay higher rate tax, but I did also “recklessly” have a disabled child that we claim DLA for. I won’t be begging anyone to not run away from what I see as their social responsibility.

@Bargepole45 its reasonable to ask you which countries you think are doing it better.

There are lots of civilised countries that have a far lower tax burden than the UK.

Name one that has:

• the population size & profile of uk (eg 60+ million people, lots of elderly
• the population density of the uk
• universal healthcare free at point of use
• universal education free at point of use

There really aren't many. Places like Switzerland are not the utopia you might imagine them to be - cost of living is sky high. You have places like romania, bulgaria and hungary which have low flat rates of income tax but have you been there? Standard of living is lower than the UK generally.

You're not addressing me but come on, catch yourself on! "The burden of proof" !!

You're not in a court of law, you're on a general message board.

But if you insist on pretending to be a barrister, lets have some proof from you.

Show us which country has a worse and more unfair tax burden than us-provide proof in figures-with sources and dates of those sources.

Burden of proof...you have made me laugh.

Sometimes though, if I see an elephant crossing the road and he steps on my foot-I think to myself "Gosh, that's unusual. Elephants are more plentiful in other countries."

Do I need a burden a proof to assure myself of this. Of course not. That's because it's so bleedin' obvious, I can rely on the proof of my eyes and the pain in my foot.

In much the same way, many of us don't need a burden of proof to know that there is an unaffordable benefits culture and that it is causing pain.

You know, because sometimes, you only need the proof of your own eyes and the real pain it is causing.

Burden of Proof. Yes. M'Lud! 😂😂

The reason people are asking for some countries is because you have said that there are lots of countries that have a far lower tax burden and remain civilised.

So generally if you make a statement, you are meant to be able to back it up, not expect people do go away and research if you are right or not.

If you had said I dont think our tax is structured right and our services seem poor, its less likely people would have asked for examples where its better.

I went off and googled and there didnt seem to be lots that have a far lower tax burden but it depends how you measure tax burden. The IFS had as quite low below the oecd average, g7 average and eu average when the last set of comparable data was released. Even updating just the uk data to next years predictions and not updating anyone ekses data had us below eu average.

Lots of different structures yes. Is our structure stupid. Yes. Are our services working no.