'Taxes are the price we pay for a civilised society'

[Bargepole45]

Having just paid an enormous tax bill, I frankly am fed up with hearing this. There are lots of civilised countries that have a far lower tax burden than the UK. It's just a form of blackmail designed to make contributors believe that there is no other way other than to pay sky high taxes to subsidise people's crap life choices.

Have too many kids and can't afford them? No problem, the state steps in. Have a terrible lifestyle and don't look after your health at all? No problem, the NHS will treat you. Spent all your money with wild abandon and have nothing left to pay for your care when you get old? Don't fret, the state will fund the same care home as someone that has saved all their life.

Don't people understand that these 'safety nets' just facilitate reckless behaviour? We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making. I say this as someone from a background where I didn't have much money and I am so fed up with people pretending that poor people don't know that an apple is healthier than a chocolate bar or that it's a good idea to actually attend school. It's insulting and disempowering to keep making excuses for people that simply aren't incentivised to make different, better choices.

A big part of the problem is that we haven’t paid enough tax to support the below.

• the population size & profile of uk (eg 60+ million people, lots of elderly

• universal healthcare free at point of use

Why is the onus on me to provide a fully researched and comprehensive alternative with full citations?

Mainly because you are the one who started the thread with comments on "facts" - thats how it works

Poland?

Why don't benefit claimants show empathy to the tax payer?
Also if the benefit claimant is capable of 'critical thinking' why can't they work out how to support themselves in life.

@LoveSandbanks
Come on, op, you’ve just paid a huge tax bill so you must have a decent job and a reasonable level of intelligence to do that job. Employ a bit of critical thinking and have a bit of empathy. Poverty is fucking hard work and nobody actively chooses it!
You are wrong. Definitively wrong. Some people do choose a life of relative 'poverty' I e. a life on welfare. I went to school with these people and still know lots of them. They are my family members. My children have parents that have chosen this lifestyle. You can lecture me all you want but I can tell from your post that you have had far less interaction with 'poor' people than I have in my life. Not everybody chooses it and it can certainly have its challenges but it also can be a hell of a lot better than grinding away at a minimum wage job and hardly being better off at the end of the working week.

There's nowhere in the UK to my knowledge where urgent MH intervention has a 'list' of 6 months expected wait.

Why, if someone is in full time work should they be forced to live on minimal subsistence levels?

Why are we blaming the people forced to claim benefits when it’s the employers that should be paying more (which would be met with higher prices so there’d be more moaning)

So you're happy with a level of debate which is essentially 'I think this and I'm right because I said so!'? Fuck me.

No, I have outlined my opinion. It is my opinion so obviously I think I'm right. The essence of my opinion is fundamentally subjective and rooted in ethics. Ethics can't be proven. If I think people shouldn't be completely cushioned from their poor life choices and you do then how can either of us prove we are right?

Probably because when we’re discussing finances, it’s quite difficult to show empathy to someone who has more than you, and not everyone has the same level of critical thinking.

Are we supposed to be waiting for a round of applause, or some benefit claimant grovelling?

believe it or not, not everyone has ready access to a supermarket. Many people do not have access to a car and would rely on public transport to get there. Imagine a single mother, working while her children are at school, uses public transport to get to work etc. the only time she can get to
the supermarket is at the weekend but the actions costs of all of them on public transport make it unaffordable coupled with the fact that even if she did go to the supermarket she can’t carry back enough food for the week for them all so she’s forced to rely on the local convenience store which has limited choice, as well as being overpriced

so..... Supermarkets deliver now, for a minimal amount. This is a crappy argument that "she has to go to the local shop"

It is a hard pill to swallow. Just paid our huge tax bill and this week drove down a massive pot hole. It was that or hit an oncoming car and had to have a new tyre as a result.

I wouldn't mind, but I've had to have 2 new tyres on the car within the past 6 months due to the state of the roads. They seem to be getting worse and worse where I am.

It's just excuses made by people that have never lived the life they are trying to imagine. It's the same when you hear people claim that poor people spend £3 on a chocolate bar and bottle of coke for breakfast because they don't know any different and therefore it's not their fault. It is so condescending! Their view of poor people is that they don't have a basic level of intelligence which is beyond insulting.

Is life on benefits really more lucrative though? I mean really, if you are paying a high amount of tax, I doubt that very much!

Ever heard the phrase "life isn't fair'

Put up with your lot in life or change it. Don't think it is your right to take from others.

Britain’s tax system combines the worst of the US and Scandinavia

"The average UK worker is taxed much less than in most countries, and no other country has a steeper climb from taxes on middle to high earners"

ETA: to add AI summary:

Key Points
Britain now has the most progressive tax system in the developed world. Top earners pay about 45% of their income in taxes and social contributions, compared with 29% for the average worker — a larger gap than in Scandinavia.

This is a recent shift. Over the past 15 years, taxes on the middle and bottom have fallen, while taxes on the top 10% have risen sharply.

Both political sides avoid talking about it.
Conservatives don’t want to highlight that they raised taxes on high earners.
The left doesn’t want to admit the top 10% has been squeezed harder than almost anyone else.

Austerity is misunderstood. Spending cuts in the 2010s weren’t used to fund tax cuts for the rich. Instead, public spending fell and taxes on the rich rose.

Economic consequences are negative.
Scandinavia: everyone pays moderately high taxes and gets strong public services.
US: lower taxes but high economic dynamism.
UK: high taxes at the top + weak public services + low taxes in the middle, creating resentment and poor incentives.

Public satisfaction and living standards lag. Britons are less satisfied with public services than Scandinavians and most Americans, and are poorer than both groups.

The upcoming Budget seems set to repeat the pattern. Instead of broad tax reform, the government is considering small tweaks that again fall heavily on higher earners without raising enough to fix public services.

Which country has the best model with regards to taxes do you think?

I’d like her to answer this too.

This is trotted out so much .If a life on benefits is so great then why are so many people working? Pension,having a home to leave for DC and so on .I think YABVU .If you have an "enormous" tax bill you must be earning very well! Are you off to the US or ME to live ? No i doubt it.Our Country is always being chided. But so many people need the NHS or Schooling .Do you think its fair if people lower down the chain starve.Apparently 7000 graduates are on benefits now .easy option I doubt it. 3 or 4 years of a Uni course ,GCSEs and A levels to get there as well!

Most people who bleat about being taxed to death in the UK would be surprised to see how much more other countries pay. Similarly if they were to discover how low our benefits are compared to many other countries. They just love to feel hard done to.

More financially lucrative for me? No, but then I also wouldn't have to deal with all the crap and stress that I have to deal with through working. I would get more time with my kids and more time to manage my house and do things I actually enjoy. I,like many people, are questioning if it's all worth it.

I am looking at the ME actually. Lots of people like me are.

Completely agree OP. It’s difficult for anyone to argue that there isn’t a huge issue with the tax burden, unless of course they’re on the receiving end of the system.

If they aren't working they get benefit capped. The lifting of the two child cap benefits those who are working in the main.

So for example using a clear example, currently a family with three children could be around £20k a year better off not working than if they were working. So using your logic, would reducing the benefits of the non working family by £20k mean that the kids would starve? If this is the case then why aren't we seeing all the children in working families with three kids starving?

The parts of country where you can get the highest benefit entitlements (eg London) also tend to have higher wages and also may be eligible when working fir more housing benefit via UC. You will get almost no working families living in london off that 20k lower value (50k or so) and getting zero top ups.

Yes there are families living off that and not starving but generally they are doing so in much cheaper areas, in particular areas with low housing costs.

You do know that benefit claimants aren’t stealing from you, don’t you? They’re not “taking” anything from you.

You pay the tax that is due, to the government. They distribute it. The disability payment we receive each month isn’t being taken directly from the plates of your children.