'Taxes are the price we pay for a civilised society'

[Bargepole45]

Having just paid an enormous tax bill, I frankly am fed up with hearing this. There are lots of civilised countries that have a far lower tax burden than the UK. It's just a form of blackmail designed to make contributors believe that there is no other way other than to pay sky high taxes to subsidise people's crap life choices.

Have too many kids and can't afford them? No problem, the state steps in. Have a terrible lifestyle and don't look after your health at all? No problem, the NHS will treat you. Spent all your money with wild abandon and have nothing left to pay for your care when you get old? Don't fret, the state will fund the same care home as someone that has saved all their life.

Don't people understand that these 'safety nets' just facilitate reckless behaviour? We can have a civilised society where people aren't cushioned from all of their bad decision making. I say this as someone from a background where I didn't have much money and I am so fed up with people pretending that poor people don't know that an apple is healthier than a chocolate bar or that it's a good idea to actually attend school. It's insulting and disempowering to keep making excuses for people that simply aren't incentivised to make different, better choices.

Hopefully if we keep asking they will respond. They have obviously done a lot of research about this in order to come up with their statements, so it would be interesting to know which country’s tax model they think works. If not, then I agree it looks like some poorly researched benefit bashing - which I am sure is not the case!!!

@Bargepole45

those calculations include disability payments which aren’t means tested.

There really aren’t loads of families with 3 plus dc

I think socio-economic problems are multi faceted. Coming from a poorer background doesn't instantly give you the ability to look at these things in a compassionate and nuanced way. I've found that a lot of people from this background are actually quite narrow minded with the attitude 'well if I did it, why can't you?'. It just fails to recognise how complex inter generational poverty is. You might have come from a poor background, but you probably have a good level of literacy and have managed to seek a way out of a life of drudgery.

I think a social safety net is the best solution. Without it, people would be on the streets/work houses/forced into sex work, and don't think you would be completely immune (because you have a good work ethic etc.). We're currently living under a global neo-liberal system that doesn’t reward talent, where a wealthy few are hoarding all the money, where we're constantly being told to blame minorities. I think the system we have in the UK is probably the best we can have in this era, high taxes are just the price we have to pay to stop us going back to the Victorian times.

What would your solution be?

Happy to pay tax towards health, education, police, justice, roads and infrastructure and defence, and also happy to contribute to a time-limited safety net for people that have worked and been self-supporting. Also think it'd necessary for society to accept responsibilty for anyone who is born or becomes very disabled.

But until housing is more affordable for the younger generation, I am resigned to subsidising our DC in their early career years. I just hope the ratios find a bettter balance soon.

You've not asked me this but let me help you straighten your thinking by looking at it another way.

From your research, do you think that we have the best model.

If so, why?

From your research, which countries do you think are worse? Please give details and figures.

By the way, can you see how silly "From Your Research" sounds? It is such a lower 6th Form debating technique. It used to be thought it intimidated, until it became a tired old trope.

This is a general message board, not one composed of academics.

@Politicians247UnderwearExtinguishingService

Incidentally, I find it interesting how many people will roundly condemn people for maybe not looking after themselves health-wise and it leading to the requirement for expensive medical care; yet when it comes to active people taking part in sports that have an inherent risk of danger to them, nobody ever seems to criticise them when the NHS has to fix them up again after enthusiastic sessions lead to injuries.

Perhaps that is because 1 in 100 people might injury themselves playing sport at the weekend to the point they need help from the NHS, but offset by the health benefits for the other 99, while 100% of those eating and drinking themselves into a 30+ BMI will need NHS help eventually. The two aren't comparable.

I think we do need to pay taxes for shared services, and to support those who are less able. A shared healthcare system, pensions, education - all add value to our society, and taxation is the way to fund that.

I also believe in progressive taxation - those with more, paying proportionally more to achieve this.

However… I think a lot of people feel they are not getting a very good return, as their taxes go up, their quality of life has plateaued, and the services received are… so so.

I am currently on maternity leave (£187 a week… taxed at my usual rates so about £90 net), when I had the baby they didn’t have enough rooms so I laboured mainly on a shared ward, I have had to pay for a private follow up post birth as the NHS aren’t interested, when I go back to work I am excluded from any government childcare help, no child benefit etc.

I am not currently feeling like I get a very good return on my ‘investment’ either - my tax bill this week is around £50k.

It has really challenged my political views, as I find myself living in a high tax state but then quality services either not existing - or I’m being intentionally excluded from them.

Sorry, you need to accept that they do not know that answer 😂

"Why in fact work at all of a life on welfare is more lucrative and requires less work and effort?"

Well don't work then.

You are not paying £50k a week in tax. Stop being silly.

Reform is working overtime lately with all these threads.

I think the problem is that whether you pay nothing in or half of your salary, you get exactly the same service. I am on an NHS waiting list, never not worked and I'm in the same queue no doubt as people that have never ever paid in. I don't want a USA style healthcare but some acknowledgment of fairness would be a start - like a voucher system. If the NHS model was so great, it would be copied around the world - but it isn't. The outcomes aren't great either compared to other 'developed' nations. Same applies to care homes - you've got a house, great, we'll have that. Never paid in, you can stay in the same care home - for nowt.

I think our tax us structured badly. The cliff edges are insane. We have disencetivised work at both ends, maybe the middle arent quite paying enough tax which noone wants to believe.

But I am interested in which specific countries have a lower tax burden and are similar level civilised aociety wise and what ee can learn from them. Are there things tgey do mote efficiently, things they dont do at all?

Im not fussed about living somewhere where chikdren scavenge on rubbish tips and people dump thier elderly on the street when dementia gets to tough. Id rank civilised as in the Netherlands Healthcare system

I assume she means her tax bill for the year is £50k

Think about how you will pay for your children before you decide to have them. You wouldn't buy a horse if you couldn't afford the stable fees.

Thake care of your health, it costs almost nothing to prevent most common illness or injuries.

Elderly care is a self inflicted problem. Here in the UK we are obsessed with independence, everyone wants their own house. This isn't normal in a lot of other countries. Also, we push for quantity of life, not quality. People languish in pain or delirium for years. We need to have a national conversation about this. But care is something that people should spend their lives preparing for. It's no different to funding your own retirement.

Taking responsibility solves most of these self inflected problems.

However… I think a lot of people feel they are not getting a very good return, as their taxes go up, their quality of life has plateaued, and the services received are… so so

I agree with this
I think many are frustrated at paying a lot of tax but services are declining. I’m having to go private for an healthcare issue when I would rather not but the waiting list is over a year.

No I don’t pay £50k a week in tax - but the deadline is this week so lots of people have big tax bills to pay this week (which is what the OP refers to in her opening post too).

I pay about half my tax now, and the other half in July.

Think about how you will pay for your children before you decide to have them

people are doing this, look at birth rates!

Well off person in not wanting to pay taxes shocker.

This is exactly why I can't be bothered responding to such ridiculous posts. Why is the onus on me to provide a fully researched and comprehensive alternative with full citations? Why can't the people who are such proponents of our current model make the case for why these system is the best option we have without needing a straw man alternative to act as a red herring?

There are clearly numerous ways to skin the tax cat that lead to 'civilised societies'. It isn't the case that you always need to have a high tax approach to achieve this. Obviously there are winners and losers in each system and your perspective on which is best often depends on this.

A huge percentage of benefits are in work benefits. Companies do not bother paying proper wages and as a result, we essentially subsidise profits for companies. Do you not find that even more frustrating? Or do you only care if poor individuals are “subsidised”?

A big thing that needs to change is not giving UC to top up wages . If a company doesn’t provide enough income to properly live off then their business model is all wrong .

Right, so are you suggesting I am some Reform activist? Seriously why can't people comprehend that alternative perspectives and world views exist.

“Why work harder if you are going to be taxed into oblivion?” This is trotted out all the time and the bit people miss is that you still have more money left than others, even after all the extra tax. So why work harder? More money (if that’s what you’re aiming for).

“Why in fact work at all of a life on welfare is more lucrative and requires less work and effort”
Pride? Job satisfaction? Money in savings, pensions, a house with a mortgage paid off.

You won’t win this argument here , it’s a left wing echo chamber, those that like to espouse their liberal agendas on other peoples money .

There’s always a Labour poster accusing with this.