to think expectations of grandfathers vs grandmothers are wildly uneven even among women?

[HazelMember]

I keep noticing how little is expected of grandfathers when it comes to childcare compared to grandmothers and a lot of the pressure seems to come from other women as well.

Grandfathers can occasionally “babysit”, take a child out once in a while, or simply not mess things up, and they’re praised for being involved and helpful. The bar feels incredibly low.

Meanwhile grandmothers are often expected to provide regular childcare, know routines, remember appointments, cook, clean, offer emotional support and be constantly available. If they don’t step up, there’s often judgement.

I’ve seen comments along the lines of how a woman had loads of help from her own mum, so it’s unfair that she now won’t look after her grandchildren as if that automatically obliges her. People stay silent about the men.

What strikes me is how normalised this is, even among women who otherwise recognise how unequal childcare expectations are. The assumption still seems to be that women will do the caring, even a generation later, while men get a pass.

Same generation. Same family role. Completely different expectations.

AIBU to think this double standard is outdated and unfair?

g and home keeping, DF with car stuff, financial matters, investment ideas, DIY, legal questions

car stuff and legal questions hardly compares to 12 hours a day childminding and all that that entails. Unless you are trouble with the law and bankrupt??

Incoherent because I don't understand how your post about women having babies with crap fathers is relevant to unhelpful grandfathers. Unless you're now blaming the grandmothers too.

Theirs is even the disdain with which people talk about GMs social life or hobbies. Oh she’s going on holiday or she won’t even cancel her regular lunch with friends for a non emergency.

anything outside of illness or being a packhorse for life isn’t of any value or considered worthwhile. It’s quite sad

You are sounding more and more incoherent yourself.

One last time for you.

The point is about how we judge grandparents. Two people in the same role are held to very different standards. Grandfathers are praised for minimal involvement while grandmothers are expected to provide ongoing childcare and are criticised if they don’t.

Mentioning that women sometimes reinforce these expectations isn’t the same as blaming individual women or rewriting past relationships.

I’m not criticising how individual families divide things up, and I’m not saying everyone should expect the same contributions from everyone. If that arrangement works for you, amazing!!!!

The point isn’t that grandfathers should do exactly the same things as grandmothers or that practical or financial support doesn’t count. It’s about how childcare specifically is framed and judged. When it’s provided by grandmothers it’s often treated as expected or owed, whereas when grandfathers do even a small amount it’s often seen as exceptional.

So this isn’t about what help people personally ask for or value, it’s about the wider narrative and the judgement that appears when grandmothers don’t provide hands-on childcare. A double standard clearly exists.

Lol - no one has ever done 12 hours of child minding for me 😂. In fact my DM has never childminded at all, literally ever now that I think about it. I’ve never needed her to, I’m quite capable of sorting this out for myself. She’s done her bit and deserves to sit back now. She’s always been available for queries like what to do with a toddler with a raised temp in the middle of the night, is this chicken pox, how to get picky eaters to eat, is it normal to still be brushing your son’s teeth at 8yo etc. In fact, my DF has probably “spent” more time on me since I became a mother than my DM.

Never ceases to amaze me how small some MNers’ worlds are. People are different and do things differently but so many posters write as though their life experiences are the correct and only ones. I find this whole thread weird, it’s such a huge generalization, so vague in terms of narratives and expectations and so forth.

How is it a generalisation? The research backs it up.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333315729_The_composition_of_grandparent_childcare_gendered_patterns_in_cross-national_perspective

Your world is tiny. It has been accepted for years that grandmothers do more childcare than grandfathers.

I’m not saying he wasn’t capable, more that he didn’t have the time (and/or wasn’t around when we were awake) and so doesn’t really have any experience of looking after young children.

I am not expecting either grandparent to look after my children, an I do not judge them in how they do so, when they do so. I am just grateful for the help. Certainly my mother will plan more ‘wholesome’ activities (and food), but she loves it and has confidence in it. My dad is slightly terrified by the responsibility and picks ‘safer’ options. Both are operating within their comfort zones and I’d say that both are stepping up comparably. They just have different starting points based on previous experience.

I’m not saying he wasn’t capable, more that he didn’t have the time (and/or wasn’t around when we were awake) and so doesn’t really have any experience of looking after young children.

I find this really hard to believe. In the whole of your childhood, he didn't have time or wasn't around when you were awake?????? It sounds like he was a crap father. He clearly had time to have sex to produce children.

My own father worked stupid hours yet he still knew how to look after me and my siblings by himself.

Interesting topic. Dhs mum died long before we even met so the kids only have grandpa on that side, he was great when our two oldest were wee, then just completely disappeared. I think I only ever asked him to babysit twice whilst I attended appointments but he would turn up at ours almost weekly and stay for days taking the girls out here there and everywhere.

I wouldn't ask my dad to watch the kids actually, maybe the older two but not the younger two. He gets annoyed about the noise etc. My mums coming to stay for a week later on in the year when we're away for my 40th, I presume my dad will also come for a bit but I imagine his tolerance will be low. He's now semi retired and I know in an emergency, he absolutely would, but I'd always phone my mum first.
He was absolutely brilliant when I had my eldest and had awful pnd, it was him that got all the babysitters together and sorted it all out for me, driving three hours each way to get dd, even for less than 24hrs.

You really have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

It’s a practical approach from mums who care about their children. My mil cancelled babysitting my 2mo when I had an appt to go do something trivial for her favorite child and tried to make it all even by suggesting my fil come. The man has 5 children and never changed a nappy like fuck is he practicing on my 2mo baby for his first time now he’s over 70 is what I said to my dh who was stupid enough to pass on the suggestion to me, since he doesn’t like to focus on the fact his mum favours her daughter.

my fil is a really lovely man and plays and cares for the gc all the time, came along to my sons basketball yesterday with me, takes one to training, doesn’t heavily favour one child’s grandchildren like his wife, and I love him. But I won’t leave a baby with him. Dh had to stay home and look after our baby. Our kids won’t hesitate to have him look after their babies, they know he’s done it all.

You said it yourself:

more that he didn’t have the time (and/or wasn’t around when we were awake) and so doesn’t really have any experience of looking after young children.

Men are to blame for their own behaviour women are to blame for not opening their eyes and keep on breeding with them then complaining about it afterwards

A man is a useless father from the first why go on and have more

Don’t be so ridiculous. No one is saying you personally should leave your baby with someone you’re not comfortable.

You say FIL is a lovely man. A lovely man who kept fathering children yet never changed a nappy? He sounds neglectful, uninvolved, cold and uncaring. Praising him for attending sports while accepting that he never learned basic childcare actually illustrates the exact double standard being discussed.

You’re framing this as sensible mums making pragmatic choices, but you are completely skipping over why those choices exist. Women are expected to be competent by default no matter what age which rarely happens for men.

Exactly.

But we're talking about useless grandfathers here, that's what the thread is about. So you're blaming (and op is blaming) a woman in her 60s, for, 30+ years ago, marrying a man who would eventually turn out to be a useless grandfather?

Also blaming the young mother for not "expecting" the useless grandfather to step up?

It's a stretch. It's a stretch that is indicative of a habit of blaming women for everything

I think it depends on family dynamics. My dad is 5 years older than my mum. My mum was still working. I had DS when my dad was 69 (he’s 73 now). When I had DS he offered childcare when I went back to work. He had DS 2-3 days a week for a number of years. He was always a hands on dad, loves children and is DS favourite person in the world. Seeing grandad solves all DS problems. We had a lovely family afternoon yesterday playing mousetrap with grandma and grandad. The grandmas in our family aren’t poor grandparents. The grandad is just exceptional.

I do think this will change when more hands on dads become grandparents. Maybe it was a generational thing? My dad always did everything childcare and laundry related when we were children but mum did the cooking.

It astounds me how some people think it's gp's duty to look after grandmids

Not to mention the “concerned about fil and dc” posts we constantly see.

My husband had not long retired when my daughter (his stepdaughter) was returning to work-her daughter was 9 months old. After 3 days at the nursery we saw a great change in my grand daughter -my husband shocked us all in insisting that he would have her for the 20 hours a week my daughter worked (I was working full time and unable to help). A second little one arrived a year later and he had her too. They are now 14 & 16 he has the most amazing close relationship with them both. He was never a hands on Dad but for him the gift of grandparenting has been a wonderful reward-I guess sometimes its down to timing, opportunity and a willingness to step out of your comfort zone.

I've never expected my mum to help with child care tbh and then she became ill at a relatively young age anyway.
My dad lol
I guess he could look after a teenage boy?

This mirrors my experience

Because ultimately daughters want their mums after they have children because mums been there and done it. Including the bleeding and leaky boobs. This the continues on to well I trust mum the most to watch baby because she raised me.

Same way most daughters will go to their mums about periods rather than dad. Because mums done it. Mum knows it and mums well a women not a man. Even though dad should know all about periods.

My dad can change nappies, feed a baby, burp a baby and by all means was a very hands on dad I think he pushed my siblings stroller more than my mum did. But I’d ring my mum to ask for childcare because well she’s my mum.

Just like I’d ask my mum for childcare over my Mil. I’d go mum, dad, mil, fil. But I don’t really ask for childcare anyway.

I'm not going to venture into anecdotes here (much) but

i) it's unreasonable to EXPECT any grandparent of any gender to provide childcare
ii) it's certainly a "thing" that a minority of MNers have issues around men providing childcare (I recently heard of a mum rejecting a reception place because the teacher was male....oops)