To be so scared and horrified about ICE?

[BarbaraVineFan]

Sorry, I know there must be other threads about this, but I’m lying in bed alone , feeling really terrified about what’s going on in the US right now and what it will lead to. I keep seeing videos saying that Trump’s administration is behaving as though they don’t have to worry about winning an election because they will just seize power. I also saw a couple suggesting that this is the start of civil war. I think it’s such a dark time for the world and I am genuinely worried for my 6 year old DD’s future.

Yes, thankyou for pointing this out. Trouble is for many posters here, this doesn't fit their narrative.

Yes, most likely there was much social media stuff encouraging people to take to the streets and put themselves in danger. Likely from some of the same people that are now screaming blue murder.

It was a completely unnecessary and tragic event and likely excessive force but messing with armed agents is a pretty stupid move, especially given recent events having demonstrated that they can and will react with lethal force.

She was SHOT.

That’s kind of the end of it for me. If I think a car is coming too close to me, I step to the side. I might well make a ‘wanker’ sign at the person as they go, I might shout, I might join a counter protest, vote, all sorts of stuff. She was SHOT DEAD.

Well, yes, but you're not an armed officer undertaking a raid. The fact remains that nobody would've been shot had they kept their distance from the officers.

What exactly were Renee and her partner doing and why were they there in the first place? I still don't understand.

OK, so you get intelligence on people who are illegal or have committed crime and you target them if you want to do that. You don't create a vast force of undisciplined men dragging random people off the street and not even giving people a chance to prove if they are citizens. It's not only cruel and intimidating, it's a massive waste of public money that they are abducting and imprisoning people when a simple ID check could confirm if they are not their targets.

Also America should maybe have thought twice before making their massive agricultural system dependent on undocumented labour if they want to get rid of all of them. As they have discovered, this does not lead to a bonanza of jobs that Americans wish to take up.

It’s even more proximate than that, because the partner was the one strutting around all cocky and jumping into the car shouting “Drive! Drive!”

It evidently hadn’t even occurred to her that she was defying armed officers, who are on the streets to apprehend criminals and hence will be tense as anything. It’s an insanely dangerous situation, and you’ve got bystanders inserting themselves high on imaginary righteousness, with no idea how reckless they’re being with the greatest of risks to themselves and others.

There really are some morally bankrupt posters on Mumsnet at the moment.
What is going on in Minnesota right now is appalling. There was zero justification for Renee to be shot. She did not attempt to ram the thug who shot her. She was doing a sharp right hand turn to avoid doing so and to move her vehicle away - as directed by the agents. She was NOT blocking the road it’s clear from the footage that other vehicles are freely able to pass in front of her car throughout. Indeed she waved the ICE officers on seconds before.
If she had been trying to ram the officer she would have hit him. The wheel must have been turned away from the officer before the trigger was pulled.
And regardless it is still ILLEGAL for ICE to shoot someone in a moving vehicle under those circumstances. Their own rules state so.
Since then ICE have been going door to door. Demanding people tell them where black and brown individuals live. They have been arresting people without charge - including US citizens. They have bloody NAZI slogans printed on lecterns the DHS is using for press conferences. They have denied any form of independent investigation into the shooting of Renee Gold access to any of the evidence.
Thr list of violations goes on and on and on. There is no justifying what is going on.

Yes it’s a really dangerous situation to recruit a huge number of non-uniformed officers at speed, give them all guns and send them out on the streets with a quota of arrests to achieve. Which is what the thread was about.

It's bonkers.

The way I see it, if you live in a democratic country and don't find the political direction to your taste you have several options. You can leave, put up with it, or you can try and effect change via the legitimate channels such as voting. However, engaging in civil unrest isn't an option I'd recommend and sadly it seems to be one that's more common with the left/antifa than any other demographic.

Trump has always been crystal clear where immigration is concerned so one can only assume that a lot of Americans agree with his stance, as many here agree with Reform.

I mean, if I was to write a guide on how not to get shot by an officer I'd probs recommend keeping a safe distance and avoiding any heated exchanges, especially when said officers are already engaged in a high tension exercise of the type which has seen numerous shootout in the last year.

I certainly wouldn't recommend deliberately hunting down armed officers and taunting them/blasting whistles at them whilst trying to sabotage their operation by warning possible criminals off.

Winding up an armed male and giving him an excuse to shoot you isn't really a great idea IMO.

Nope. I avoid the news like this. I absolutely do stick my head in the sand. You can call me a coward all you like but my mental health is sound. What’s the actual point in worrying and stressing about something that is so utterly beyond your control? Just live your life.

@GaIadriel she was legitimately and legally protesting armed thugs kidnapping people off of the streets.
It is a democrat state- they did not vote for this. How precisely would you have them protect themselves and their neighbours? Waiting till the next election (if there even is one) will be too late. The damage is already done now. Let alone in 4 years time.

It is becoming very clear how the Nazi party got along with their atrocities for so long

Well, I wouldn't be blocking the road and blasting whistles at armed officers. Doesn't seem like a great idea.

But why the hell should people in a democratic country have to ‘avoid’ law enforcement agents, ‘avoid winding them up’? As a couple of people said upthread, if these goons were properly trained, they would be able to deal appropriately with the very mild ‘ winding up’ that they are being subjected to by these peaceful protestors.

I’m a teacher and have been subjected to kids shouting at me, swearing at me, throwing things across the room, flipping chairs. Do you think I have ever once reacted violently? No, because I have been trained to de-escalate rather than escalate volatile situations. I’d be a shitty teacher if I couldn’t do that, and these ICE agents are deeply shit at their jobs because they can’t. But in their case, it leads to the deaths of innocent civilians.

Can ICE just go up to a group of tourists on holiday in the US, especially if they're darker skinned say, and if they hear their foreign accents or language, harass them for their "papers" and arrest them if they don't have any identification on them? How bad is it exactly?

@BarbaraVineFan “why the hell should people in a democratic country have to 'avoid' law enforcement agents, 'avoid winding them up'?”

Sorry, but this is madness. This is not how to live. It is a democratic country and these are fellow citizens, doing a job which democracy has judged to be in the common good.

The idea of this being the type of quasi-civil-war struggle, where active saboteur resistance might be justified, is total fantasy.

Why? Because these men are entirely incapable of controlling themselves!
You know what you sound like. You sound like all those people who forever blame women for the violence of men

”she had a drink”
”she was wearing something provocative”
”she didn’t say no”
”she was blocking the road”

No! Just no. The only one responsible for his actions is himself. He made the decision to shoot. He pulled the trigger. He was the one supposedly in position of responsibility.
She was not blocking the road. She was blocking one lane of the road. The car was easily manoeuvred round. She waved the ICE vehicles passed her and several did drive around her. Jonathan Ross chose to escalate it. Because she teased him. Which is not illegal nor is it an offence worthy of being shot for.

This is how it happens. This is exactly how people will do anything to explain and justify evil. This person here is actually taking time to try and explain why a totally unnecessary murder was completely fine and makes total sense, as they claim be "bright" and "ethical". Embarrassing. Horrible. Fascinating. Grotesque.

But it's back to the old argument that I should be able to leave my house unlocked or leave my life savings in a carrier bag on my doorstep. What you should be able to do and what is sensible to do aren't always the same thing. That's where 'victim blaming' ideology can lead people to make stupid decisions based on principle rather than common sense.

I'm not going to try and stroke a dog which I know might bite my hand off just because the owner should've trained it not to.

Nobody is defending the actions of the ICE agent but let's not pretend Renee and her wife were just complete bystanders. For sure, they wouldn't have had a clue who the target of the operation was. For all the talk of 'kidnapping people off the streets' it could've been a human trafficking ring for all we know.

And I take your point but I doubt it's very common for teachers to get shot or run over at work by angry children.

The left is partly why we now have this right wing backlash IMO. It's the same here to a lesser extent. People are voting Reform because they're sick of virtue signalling woke people who endlessly opine about gammons whilst being far too afraid to ever criticise things like the majority of UK Muslims believing homosexuality should be a criminal offence.

We're not going to see an end to this anytime soon. People are sick of protesters/the woke/the professionally offended and they'll continue to vote for the stark opposite of this. Which in turn will create more outrage and public disorder from left. And on it shall go.

Obama did it pre 2017 and bit differently. However, I would bet my trousers if he did it in 2025 even in a same way, SM would go mental (not as much aa when it's Trump tho, but still crazy)

It's kinda hard to believe that some posters are genuinely asking why we need to avoid winding up armed law enforcement officers in the middle of a potentially dangerous operation! Like, it's been known for a pretty long time surely that perverting the course of justice is actually an offence. You don't just waltz into an armed police or military situation and start fucking around.

Those of you minimising this, do some research on the rise of the SS in Nazi Germany. The similarities are horrendous. I think ICE is more like the waffen SS than the gestapo.

The idea that American law enforcement is uniquely awful is for the birds.

America is way down the list of countries whose police officers kill the most people. Also if you interfered with active law enforcement operations in countries where the police are routinely armed (eg Spain, Italy, France etc) it would be likely to end badly, just like in the USA.

Bit dramatic. I think people that actually lived through the Holocaust wouldn't see it as remotely similar. It's not even close to approaching the levels of state control many countries have. Like, China is a pretty long way from third reich Germany and you'd defo not get away with interrupting law enforcement operations or openly criticising the government over there.

Not saying we should want to be like China but the fact that people think they can just wade in and intervene in anything they disagree with shows how much we take our safety for granted over here. I doubt people would do that in many places overseas.

They are not law enforcement officials. The are supposedly immigration enforcement. There is a big difference! And again as has been said numerous times being in the US illegally is not a criminal offence it’s a civil one.
They are not identifiable, they neither show nor have a warrant. They are masked and have repeatedly ignored or disregarded legal paperwork of people who are in the country legally or indeed are citizens!
No one is objecting to humane deportations of those who are in the illegally. But when you have people being profiled on the street, kids followed home from school, school buses boarded by armed men, then it becomes a problem.
And you might want to read up on what perverting the course of justice is - because it’s not blocking a lane in a road and shouting to a police officer to “go get some lunch”!