Ice agent shoots a woman in the face part 3

[Moontan]

Donald Trump has now said its okay to murder a woman. Because they are doing it for people's 'safety'

It is interesting how far humans will let themselves be abused by bad people.

I was watching a documentary about jonestown the cult.

Some people left the cult

They said that the leader beat people, raped people, starved people. He made them do physical labour for many hours a day. He demanded that they give him all of their money.

And yet still hundreds of people followed him.

People seem to keep supporting a person and staying there. Rather than saying "maybe i was wrong and this guy is actually a bad person"

Actually, I think it's because a woman exercising her constitutional right to protest seems to have been shot in cold blood and is now being smeared before any investigation by the people with possibly the biggest microphone in the world.

Below is a question I asked you a page back about what seems to be your glossing over of one of them calling her a 'fucking bitch' in the moment after she was shot (it was fucking, not stupid as you asserted). Would you care to answer that?

1dayatatime · Today 10:20

But he seemed quite calm both before and after the shooting. As for the "stupid bitch" comment, I disagree with the "bitch" part but being surrounded by armed officers shouting at you to get out of the vehicle and then refusing to comply, is a pretty stupid thing to do which resulted in being dead.

Show quote history

He, or the other ICE agent - it's not completely clear who's speaking - didn't call her a 'stupid' bitch. They called her a 'fucking' bitch. Immediately after she was murdered, with her brains splattered all over the car. So it had nothing to do with her judgment or lack thereof.

How do you defend that?

what he did was against all training.

they are trained not to shoot at a moving vehicle. They are trained to move out of the way if possible.

The ICE agent used excessive force.

However, the victim should not have left her house, to agitate and provoke the agents performing their lawful duty. She was reckless, and paid with her life.

I understand analogy. Yours was a desperately poor one. I also understand statistics and what they do and do not prove. I think unilaterally excluding either sex from entire professions is playing into the hands of extremists.

From the videos it looks like the shooting of the protestor wasn't justified.

But protesters are using their vehicles to block ICE from carrying out actions which the American public has voted for, ie controlling the borders. They are putting ICE officers in a very difficult position. They need to back off and campaign for different policies if that's what they want. It's not all black and white.

It’s really frustrating seeing all the comments online where people have seen only one of the videos and taken a stance either saying she deserved it or the opposite.

In reality, if you have seen several of the videos from different perspectives you can piece together what happened and it is somewhere in the middle. I don’t think she intended to hurt the officer but she was not acting in a panic, her wife was telling her to drive. I believe the officer acted on instinct but that this was disproportionate, possibly due to his previous experience of being dragged by a car in similar circumstances. We really have to remember that the officers are dealing with real threats on a daily basis so whilst I do think it was a mistake to shoot, I can see how the sequence of events led to this.

Livelovebehappy
"I don’t agree with the self defence reasoning, but the government think that’s what happened here."

No that's the lie they are spinning.

That’s it.

People should ask themselves - you have three kids. You see armed federal agents outside your house - tensions are running high. What do you do? You certainly don’t go into the street to agitate and block the agents with your car.

Sheer madness.

Ps. Let’s cut the crap - it’s more anti-MAGA than it is pro immigrant.

We aren't in the UK and no I don't think grok images on dead bodies are ok. What an appalling allegation.

You're really reaching here but the fact are in the US officers are armed. If you don't do as instructed and act in threatening manner then these situations escalate swiftly. You analysing how the 'wheels were pointing' in slow motion footage is not the same as being there, is it.

So you don't think members of the public should ever protest against the actions of officials? And you think that if they are shot in the course of that protesting they have somehow brought it on themselves?

Not what I said.

But use some common FFS.

PS. I was discussing this with my DW this morning. I am familiar with firearms - although I have never had to fire one in anger. But, you are taught discipline around them. No way would I have left my house that day.

This is very much where I fall, having read more about the situation. I think Hanlon's Razor is quite apt here - "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

She was stupid to have got in the middle of an ICE protest and blocked the road, before failing to comply, and he was stupid to break protocol, and then shoot at her. Ultimately he bears the burden of responsibility, being both the law enforcement officer in the situation, and the one who took someone's life.

But considering his extensive work history and lack of prior incidents throughout, I don't think he's necessarily a slavering, trigger-happy monster. And I certainly don't think she was trying to hurt anyone - she most likely just panicked when things escalated.

So one should only protest if one doesn't have children? I think you are not being serious. Posting such nonsense on a parenting site reeks of insincerity.

'disagree these were armed officers, they are armed soldiers, trained to fight wars and total unsuitable for civil law enforcement.'

You think Immigrants and customs officers are soldiers and fight in wars?

Funny that, because I struggle to take you seriously.

You have an axe to grind, that’s clear.

Best of luck with that.

In reality, there has to be something wrong with anyone who thinks she deserved to die. In reality, there has to be something wrong with a President and Vice President of a country who jump onto social media to blame a woman for being shot in the head. In reality, the only legitimate response would have been that it was a tragic incident in which serious mistakes were made and lessons need to be learned. Otherwise, Trump is not making America safe, he is acting like a dictator who shuts down all dissent, not just with violent rhetoric but also by supporting violent actions.

Evading the question, then?

Grow up.

Personally, if someone has teenage or younger children, then I don't think they should go to protests and put themselves in the middle of the action, if the law enforcement officers are armed with deadly weapons. It's too dangerous, imo.

But then I also won't ride on motorbikes or fly in small aircraft since having children (both of which I used to do occasionally), so I'm quite risk averse. Still, I think confronting armed strangers in a volatile situation, without knowing how well trained they are or how they'll react, is an irresponsible thing to do as a parent.

I have grown up, thank you. Why don't you want to answer the question? Do you think the people of Iran should only protest if they don't have children?

Yes but since when did authoritarian regimes begin by announcing the erosion of basic rights? They don’t, they ‘justify’ their tactics as ‘reasonable’ even when there is video evidence proving the opposite.

You're reacting to something the other poster didn't say. She didn't say that the victim deserved to die, and she didn't say there wasn't something wrong with Trump's reaction.

Much of the tone of this discussion has been that it's worse that a mother is dead yet you haven't challenged that angle afaics. It may not be you personally who said that but (general) you can't have it both ways.

I've watched several videos from several angles. I disagree; it is somewhere in the middle. There was never any threat posed by Renee; the videos show she was moving slowly with a clear intention to turn away from ICE agents. If you watch from before they exited their vehicle to intimidate her, she was actually trying to turn before ICE came into the frame.

She was not blocking the road. A car passed her immediately before the shooter stopped. She was clearly waving them to pass her. There was no reason for ICE to stop at all.

Renee was calm, speaking politely and smiling. She even told them, "I'm not mad at you, bro." ICE approached her vehicle with aggression. What Renee's wife was doing is irrelevant. You cannot shoot one person because another person was mean to you.

Her wife started telling her to drive after armed men started trying to yank the car doors open and leaning into the car, and imo did sound panicked when she was saying it, panicked that armed men were surrounding her wife. I interpreted that as her urging her wife to drive away from the threat, not ram an officer.

If his previous experience coloured his response, he had no business being in the field with a gun. The onus is on him and his employer to ensure he is suitable to be in the field, not the general public.

Armed law enforcement agents should not "act on instinct." Their training should override any instinct to kill, and if they are not able to calmly assess a threat without instinct taking over, again, they have no business being in the field, and the onus to ensure they are able to act safely is on them, not the general public.

The second and third shots and his behaviour after the fact are indefensible. After the first shot, he fired, and any hint of danger was eliminated. They were all at the side of the car, which was pointed away from them.

Calling a victim "a fucking bitch," seconds after shooting her to death, is not the actions of a man who fired out of necessity; it is the actions of an angry, aggressive male with no remorse that he just ended a life.

I think you will find she said this, “It’s really frustrating seeing all the comments online where people have seen only one of the videos and taken a stance either saying she deserved it or the opposite.” So she clearly agrees that people have been arguing she deserved it.