To dob in family member - benefits

[Dragonsfoot]

I have a relative that does have health problems. They went to tribunal and were awarded higher rate PIP and have a motorbility car apparently supported by a Rottweiler of an advocate. I have no gripe that they deserve something - occasional falls, mild mental health problems, physical health problems that require monitoring and support and mild difficulties dressing themselves due to joint problems but don’t actually need to be helped. They do have a disability.

However, they are able to walk miles most of the time, decorate their home, complete domestic tasks and attend social activities on a very regular basis on foot. Morally torn. They probably will struggle without the money. Would DWP even do anything kind of thing. Either way I feel a bad person.

I suppose sat on my whether I was being fair to them and society at large really. Please don’t call them a scumbag. They aren’t. Right, really off to bed now.

I don’t think that poster used the word scumbag, I did, and I was being sarcastic.

Yep, and we all see the multiple ‘guides’ on the internet on how to complete the assessment forms so that decisions go in the favour of the claimant. Tribunals can only make decisions on the information put in front of them. And let’s not kid ourselves that every application they see is a genuine version.

Nobody is saying that they shouldn’t. I’m certainly not, but if you see people, living a reasonably functional life (including dog walks, holidays, school runs, super market shopping etc etc on the almost daily ) basically everything but ‘work’ due to their bad back or MH you cannot stop people drawing conclusions- that maybe, they’ve over egged. (No I’m not a medical practitioner, no I don’t assess, no I don’t have access to their medical records- I do however have multiple examples in real life and professionally who I feel might fall into that category- and no, I’ve not grassed)

They can sometimes walk miles is not enough reason to 'dob them in'. Let the assessors do their jobs. She should mind her own business and stop being vindictive.

🍪Where's the biscuit gone?!

Medical evidence is also needed. It's not just a case of filling in a form. The fraud rate for PIP is 0% despite everyone and their dog knowing at least 11 people who rock climb for a hobby but get £3m a week in PIP payments and 7 free Teslas a year.

???????

I never used that term so please don't suggest that I did. In fact, I think you will find I was entirely on your family member's side.

Wow

Tribunals have medical experts on the panel who specialise in the conditions being claimed for. Do you think they don’t require robust evidence, not just hearsay written on a form?

If you apply for a job, you surely look up the best way to word things that expresses your strengths and describes your experience.
If your CV just said "I am good at managing", then you wont get anywhere. So you look up what terms and words to use.

Applying for PIP is the same. You need to word things in a way that expresses how difficult you find things. There are guide on how to do this as it is really hard.

Applying for PIP is especially hard, as people applying have to basically look into how shit things are. If they have a disabled child, a child that they love dearly and brings so much love and light to their lives... they have to write down how shit their life is, and how they can't manage things their peers find piss easy. That is so fucking hard, and a lot of parents applying for DLA take fucking ages to fill the forms in because they basically have to say how bad things are, and in the mean time try to live their kid's best life.

How do you know what problems they encounter? Do you live with them? Some conditions are worse 4 out of 7 days the other days they are able to do a bit more. Disability isn’t just a static thing it ebbs & flows.

And this is why reasonable people - with a reasonable view (and a real life set of 👀) cannot ever engage in these conversations. They become a pissing competition where those in real need invite you to adopt their disabilities/ children and walk in their shoes etc.
The issue is the blaggers - that we know and see living their lives. They are the ones that cause suspicion.

PIP is not an out of work benefit.

The zero percent fraud rate is the DWP's own figures. One would hope the people who award the claims know more about the rate of fraud than schoolyard gossips who see someone do two school pick-ups a day and decide they understand that person's physical and mental health conditions better than the medical experts who assessed them and had access to their medical records.

Everyone doesn’t know a blagger, I don’t. Come from a big working class family, plenty of friends, live in a suburban area where you can’t sneeze loudly without the whole street knowing so it’s not due to lack of exposure to people and their business.

If overall most of the money goes to the right people, I couldn’t care less even if I did. No scheme has 0% fraud and the cost of tracking down the tiny minority committing will probably outweigh the savings. The systems been screwed by austerity, poor policy making and bureaucracy, not a few people getting a free hired Nissan Juke.

OP, I can empathise with your feelings, having had two relatives claiming benefits in dubious circumstances:

One received disability benefits for decades, the relevant condition relating to a bad back. We never saw any evidence of back issues that meant that they were unable to work. Later in life, they did some training (I recall, rather ironically, in a physio-related area) and ended up working in the health system for a period.

The other received unemployment benefits whilst also working cash-in-hand in tradesman jobs, amongst other pursuits. At one point, this person was doing some work on our house and said they wouldn't be able to attend in the morning because they had to go to the dole office to collect their cheque! I would be surprised if this person ever submitted an accurate tax return. The closest I came to contemplating dobbing them in was when their house, which was on a very large block, was largely destroyed by fire. I do not know whether they was receiving benefits at this stage, but they still seemed to be enjoying lots of 'off the books' income. In claiming insurance for the fire, they included lost income from tenants who also lived at this property. I wondered whether the insurance company would be interested to know that these individuals were not in the fire-affected house but in separate cabins, and whether the Tax Office would be interested to hear about all this rental income!

OP, I never did anything, and indeed never seriously contemplated reporting either of them. But as someone who is a firm believer in having a safety net, and who has (happily) paid a lot into it, it was frustrating to see relatives deciding to opt out of the social contract. I couldn't understand the ethics of it, and it seemed so selfish. I guess they just had a very different view of the world.

Should you feel like a 'bad person' for not acting? I think some of the problems have been highlighted by others, including whether you have access to all the relevant evidence. But even if your relative is gaming the system (as I'm sure one of mine was, and likely the other too), I also accept that (1) there will be a certain amount of fraud in any benefits system and (2) it will be too costly and counterproductive to stamp all of it out. To the extent there are, in my view, huge issues with the setup and sustainability of the benefits system in the UK, I think that there are other, far bigger, issues we need to address than dodgy claims.

I hope this helps, OP.

I’d say, put yourself in their shoes. If you had the same health issues, would you just sit around all day or would you try to do things with your life? And would you think the amount they are receiving is fair if it were you in their place?

OP

I'm just not feeling like being as kind as everyone else right now.

If you’re so determined to wreck someone’s life out of envy, jealousy, and a warped sense of justice or morality, and you believe a person with disabilities who receives state support doesn’t deserve anything good, why not live that reality yourself? Why not go through an accident that leaves you disabled if you think that’s fair? Why not lose your hands, other vital parts of your body, or your mobility to make things “equal” and “worthy” in your eyes? It would be something to watch you struggle to survive, fighting for state aid. Even more ironic would be imagining you stuck at home doing absolutely nothing, since you think people with disabilities can’t do anything and shouldn’t have anything you don’t approve of—doing nothing you believe that family member can’t do because of her disabilities. If she can’t do what you disapprove of, then by your logic, neither can you.

P.s: For goodness' sake, here's some advice for anyone reading this: never share your financial matters with anyone you don't trust completely! There are people out there who would love to destroy you.

Not a single family in the playground? Guy down the pub? Cousin with a dodgy partner who’s doing cash in hand gardening? Not one? Ok.
I probably won’t engage much more with this thread as the histrionics have begun, as they always do and that details any thread of this type.
I won’t be drawn into benefits experts debate about whether pip is an out of work benefit. It derails. I know who I know and I know what I know. There’s going to be a lot of frothing when government announces benefit reforms- most of the public will be ok with this- because they have the same experiences I mention on this thread. Good night. Go well.

No need to apologise. I'm glad I wasn't the only person to ask that question. I notice the OP didn't answer it.

I can confidently say I do not know anything about the medical history of "the bloke down the pub" or of random playground families. I don't even know enough about the medical history of most relatives to decide whether they would or would not be entitled to PIP because their private health concerns are not my business unless they come to me with them for support.

I do know one of my sister's friends who was "signed off with stress." Everyone knew she was blagging, she was at the pub x times a week, always on days out with her kids and even went to Florida. Unfortunately, the gossips didn't gossip quietly enough for her not to hear them. Nor did any of them apologise to her family when the terminal cancer diagnosis she'd been given killed her 6 months after she was "signed off with stress."

Guy down the pub? Since when has being on PIP meant you can't go to the pub?
PIP is not means tested so you can work cash in hand all you want. Although that will be a matter for the HMRC.

You seem to be of the belief that disabled people must be shut away at home. If they are out, then they must be taking the piss.

Hide your head in the sand about how PIP is an out of work benefit all you want, but the fact it, is that is a payment to give people with disabilities some independence. That means going out and doing the things you take for granted.

What has it got to do with you? Mind your own business!

Very true.

How much are they awarded and why do you feel they don't 'deseeve' it?