Men still have the control, how is this ok?

[Unad11]

I have had various experiences with men, some good and some bad. But the reality of how men still control the world really hit me when I had DD.

DP left me during pregnancy after a four year relationship. Things that followed…

Called CMS and was spoken to like shit, had to call constantly to get anything done. Told they would ‘do what they can’ (spoiler, that’s very little).

When he was forced to pay, he did. But he can have a 24% increase in his pay during the year which isn’t taken into account for any increase. He did actually have a 20% increase and he pocketed it all without giving any extra towards DD’s life… this despite the fact that the nursery bill alone was more than double his contribution from CMS.

When he had more involvement in her life it was on his terms. He was often late. I did all the hard yards of keeping her up to date with vaccinations and enrolling her in and paying for nursery.

Then I had the role of being there 24/7 if she ever needed collecting from nursery. It was me who had to ask favours of my manager, me whose career was affected, me who shouldered the financial penalties.

And the real kicker? If you dare to talk about money, you’re a gold digger, you’re all about money or you’re reminded that the money is for DD and not ‘for you.’ That’s ignoring the fact that the lovely gentlemen paying the maintenance is receiving thousands from you in unpaid childcare… if he isn’t parenting 50% of the time (ie his share) he’d have to pay a nanny… but oh wait, he doesn’t because the woman is expected to do it all.

And the next kicker… if you dare to complain that you’re doing it all, don’t you WANT to look after your DD? What a terrible mother you are!

The reality is, money matters. Money protects, money gives you control. Men need to pay up, properly. Men and women need to stop shaming women for speaking up.

I also want to add to my rant that I think nursery is the only place where you hear people talking about it like it’s a charity… (when they’re not)… if it closes or there’s a shut down, no you shouldn’t have to pay to ‘ensure the staff are paid.’ Only in a childcare context is it that the women are supposed to be grateful for the service being provided in return for huge fees. Imagine a gym closing for a day and people (men) being told shut up and pay because the staff still need paying. Women are always supposed to be grateful, we are outsourcing our job to earn money, when that’s shameful remember (..!!) And yes I know the ts and cs often say you must pay when there’s closures but that’s not the point, the point is it’s the only industry where that’s supposed to be accepted. Women you must be grateful even if you are paying through the nose for the childcare.

I sound bitter and twisted (because I am) but I am (very luckily) financially secure and mostly protected from this shit these days (DD now 5).

But… I want to help make changes. I don’t know where to start. Any ideas thoughts or comments very much welcome. And I’m bracing myself for the usual misogynistic posts too, of course.

It isn't right and it shouldn't be like this.
The problem is that us men have no concept of what absolute crap women have to endure. This means that we don't, however empathetic any man might be, have an innate sense of how bad things are, we have to theorise it.
Whatever situation you line up, a man gets given far more leeway than a woman ever would. Walk away from your kids, a man might get some disapproval, but in reality it would be consequence free.
A man as a lone parent, what a hero, a woman as a lone parent, probably only after the benefits. Nonsense but just an example of how society is biased against women.

Some of the MN tropes don’t really describe society as it is or how normal people behave.

There is a massive biological drive to have children from both sexes, but especially women. And the idea that you can see into the future as to whom will be a ‘shitty’ father isn’t realistic. Luckily, people don’t make decisions with 20/20 hindsight, and everyone romanticises their partner and at least somewhat overlooks the bad points in a relationship. That is a normal psychological bias.

So the idea of blaming women who ‘procreate with useless men’ is victim blaming of the worst kind.

But also, until recently and, even now to a lesser extent, women were assumed to be the primary parent in the case of divorce. For fathers who loved their children, they definitely came out emotionally worse from this, even if financially better off.

Personally, I pay way more than 50% of my childrens’ costs, and still pay a small amount of maintenance, despite a very generous divorce settlement. Because they are my children and I love and want the best for them.

So, yes, there are some shitty fathers out there, and also some gold diggers. But I am not sure either typify how men or women are or that any conclusions can be drawn about how society is structured.

I guess the reality is that you can’t force someone to be a good parent using law, and maintenance can only cover the minimum and is very cheatable, especially for the self employed.

I think making CMS fit for purpose might go some of the way to helping. All I ever got from them were repeated letters telling me how they had the power to take away my non-paying ex's driving licence or passport. They never actually DID it, just told me that they could.

Which did not help me in the slightest.

I see it differently OP.

Yes men do get a bloody good deal. However, being an independent woman and a single mum has its plus points.
Yes, I've raised ds on my own, his f does absolutely nothing, and it has been hard work but...

I get to raise ds on healthy food. I get to choose and manage ds' education, I can set ds a good work example, I can counter ex's increasingly misogynistic views. I can raise my child to be kind and polite and open minded. I can model healthy relationships. As a result I have a ds I am hugely proud of every day. He is a much kinder, more honest person than his dad.
I value that freedom.

I have long thought that grown-up children should be able to sue absent parents for unpaid maintenance.

The responsibility to pay is clear and the value of the loss could be demonstrated easily enough by using CMS rates as a benchmark.

The principles of child support need a huge overhaul, but even some of our own politicians have not covered themselves in glory in terms of taking responsibility for and being a father to their children…

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/21/boris-johnson-fathered-child-affair

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44044168

When family breakdown situations occur in daily life I have noticed that people are very quick to make excuses: ‘Oh we don’t know what happened…he must have his reasons…perhaps she was doing the same thing…’

A little bit more judgement would not go amiss. In the effort to de-stigmatise sexual activity outside marriage the losers have been children.

I think this is a big part of it. If more women left marriages and left the children with Dad it would start to change but that won't happen. Many women on here don't even want Dad to do shared parental leave.

My father in law is now in his sixties, still working and has regular payments deducted from his wages for child maintenance arrears which are paid to my mother in law of a similar age from when he left her working two jobs and bringing up four dc alone. The irony is that she doesn’t need the money now and his dc now have much loved dc of their own who they would never dream of treating in this way. I hope it shames him all these years later.

That’s ignoring the fact that the lovely gentlemen paying the maintenance is receiving thousands from you in unpaid childcare

What a strange thing to say. No he isn't.

I think if you have kids as a women you should secretly plan and accept that at some point your going to be on your own raising them on your own and plan your life accordingly

I think there seems to be some strange idea that we're talking one man, one woman, one child. That often isn't the case. Its not some desperate woman having a child and hang the consequences. Quite often it's men actively walking away from a relationship or marriage where the children were agreed on.

Some of the older guys and those the same age as me (middle aged) I work with are lovely guys but still very traditional. Whereas the younger guys I work with are amazing, clued up and care about fairness. I am hoping things will be different for the next generation of women having kids 🤞

If he only sees the kids at weekends, or every other weekend, yes he is.

" Imagine a gym closing for a day and people (men) being told shut up and pay because the staff still need paying. "

Plenty of people DID say this in Covid times. We were encouraged to continue our membership even though the gym was closed.

People were told to continue paying their hairdressers too. It made the richer MNers so easy to spot

How would you even do that though?
Gym membership is usually a direct debit so easy not to cancel it.

Absolutely YANBU.
I never had children and married a decent man, thirty years older, for security and also, to be left alone as far as sex goes, now at 47.
Been married for 20 years, all good.
The thing is, I had shitty experience in general with men since teenage years and it made me loathe, hate and fear them.
Bold statement, I know. Speaking for myself.

I don’t have children. I might consider having them if I was the dad in the scenario but unfortunately things are too unfairly stacked again the mum and it’s not for me. Why single mothers get the bad reputation and it’s not the (some) absent waste of space absent fathers, who won’t pay a penny, I don’t know.

I have known this ever since I was a little girl. Having your own money is the only way to have complete control over your own life. I am happily married with DC, but I have worked extremely hard to make enough money that I could survive just fine if he wasn't around. Sad that this is how things are, but it is what it is.

On the surface I co-parent well and amicably with my ex, he would say we have it nailed.

But I hate him. 4 nights a month and a few extra in the 3 big holidays. Fuck him, fuck the women in his life that congratulate him and tell him he’s a great dad, fuck his complete lack of awareness.

Thank god for my amazing parents. What recourse do I have? Absolutely none. He thinks he’s a knight in shining armor for every crumb of extra he does.

I know my feelings are only hurting me but how do you passed the injustice? I adore my children but it’s hard for me even with the massive support I have.

Hes struggling with the consequences of some terrible life choices and I make the right sounds but in reality I think good. Fuck him.

(I swear swear swear im not an awful person, like this post makes me seem. I’m just triggered by the fuckwit on a daily basis).

@Meadowfinch I do get this. And in my more rational moments I really appreciate that there is a luxury of sorts in being there for it all and being able to make all the decisions. You sound like a wonderful my mum!

@Luckyingame do you mean you’re happy no longer being pestered for sex so have a sexless relationship? I’ve considered looking for this

@Gwenhwyfar it’s not Covid now? Not sure how that’s relevant. The fact it was said in Covid to some male based activities shows how extreme circumstances have to be before they’re forced to pay up in the way mothers are shamed for complaining about nursery fees when the nursery is shut

I absolutely agree with you OP in raising this and also with a PP which suggests we do what the US do and just throw people in jail if they don’t support their kids. We should make it as socially unacceptable as drink driving; the damage of deadbeat parents is worse IMO

As a starting point how about:

• government determines the minimum monthly amount required to raise a child in the area in which the child is living (possibly not increasing if one parent unilaterally decided to move somewhere much more expensive).
• each parent is responsible for 50% of that minimum cost, regardless of their income or employment status. It is automatically deducted from the salary and/or benefits of the non-resident parent. If they are self-employed and don't pay it gets added to their end of year tax bill and chased by HMRC as needed. Same for those living off rental income, share income etc.
• if they don't pay there is a series of penalties e.g. impact on credit rating, loss of driving licence, assets can be sold etc. If you don't earn enough then you have to find a way, same as the resident parent does.
• non-resident parent then pays an additional amount calculated by reference to what they can afford and reflecting how much they have the child.
• no reduction for existing children to reflect subsequent children. If you can't afford to have more children whilst supporting the children you already have then you shouldn't hsve them.

Sounds harsh but it reflects the reality for the resident parent.

It’s not fair at all.

But you can’t make anyone into a decent parent if they don’t want to be.

You’re the one who will hopefully reap the benefits of how well you’ve taken care of your dd when she’s older and he’ll be the crap dad who she hopefully doesn’t care that much about.