I’ve decided to wake up and realise that looks do matter in society, and I’m going to use that to my advantage

[PhoenixRisingHigher]

I was young, slim, dark haired, & reasonably attractive, it was all I had ever known so I thought how I was treated was normal life for everyone.
naturally out going too so that helped open a lot of doors

I then got ill, overweight, & went through serious bereavement , & gave up on looks entirely after grief & other troubles

hajned a stone around the covid era. I looked like a slob, & became not just invisible, but people treated me like I had a low IQ, I was a complete zero. I have in the last year lost the weight, fixed my hair, & started wearing nice clothes again, & instantly I am treated with respect & that my opinion matters.
for example people will smile at me and open door for me and basically treat me nicely

what shocked me was I’m basically the same person inside regardless of how I look
yet people really go treat you so differently

I don't blame society for this, its nature, but I absolutely without doubt understand how much beauty DOES matter, maybe not all the time in every circumstance, but for existing in society, it is important, & its part of getting ahead, investing in looks is just as important as investing in your career & your home.

I don't mind that I was ignored at my worse, quite frankly I am greatful I was ignored in that state because I hated how I looked & I wanted to be invisible, so it served a purpose. But however moral
someone wishes to be, looks do matter as a social species.

so now I’m gonna have to up my game and use it to my advantage
which I also find kinda sad too

but guess it is what it is

me too. I think feeling like you have something to contribute is a great confidence builder too.

Of course you are treated very differently if you're physically attractive and well groomed. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

I know that on MN everyone likes to pretend that they are oblivious to anything so superficial as 'looks' and instead are attracted to someone's 'inner glow' ' sweet nature' 'purposeful demeanor', yeah right, whatever.

However, in reality humans are intensely visual and make thousands of micro judgements with their eyes every day. In the first instance, if someone is conventionally attractive (e.g. symmetrical features, clear complexion, good hair, good teeth, good physique etc) then they typically get preferential treatment. There have been hundreds of studies documenting this phenomena, it's well known.

Then, if after the first instance, the conventionally attractive person happens to also have a pleasant personality then the world really is their oyster. It's highly likely they will have a smoother path through life, enjoy more opportunities and benefit from more positive interactions.

I can really relate to despising certain of the other school mums who were distant when I was overweight and only chatty and friendly when I wasn't any more. It wasn't all of them, but it was striking how certain ones suddenly became keen to chat outside school only when I was a stone and a half lighter.

I expect if I'd been slim when my child started reception, I'd have thought they were lovely friendly people, but I find I really can't see them that way now. I can't help but feel very negatively towards them.

I do think by adulthood the adolescent fear of being seen standing too close to the fat girl in the class should be behind most people.

I agree. Ten years ago I lost 5 stone in weight. I was treated completely differently - it was a real eye opener. I gradually regained the weight and attitudes towards me changed again, although I never 'let myself go'. I have always worn nice clothes and presented myself well, even at the higher weight, so I firmly believe the weight was the factor. I've now lost weight again, 4.5 stone this time and yes, it's happened again. It may sound ridiculous if you haven't experienced it, but weight bias is real, unfortunately.

I agree with you OP. I have the sort of features that disappear without makeup and hair cut/styled, and I just look a mess. When my hair is 'done' and with makeup on, it's like the difference between night and day. Shop assistants, bar staff and waiters suddenly notice me, smile, engage, listen, and serve me. It's nothing to do with inner confidence because I forget that I have makeup on/hair done until I notice the difference in attitudes.

In fact there is a lot of research showing that people who look conventionally attractive - and for me that means with the addition of makeup and hairdo - are more respected, listened to, and believed by such important subsections of society as police, juries, teachers, shop assistants, etc. Grim but true.

Obviously looking presentable in public gives the impression that you respect yourself and are a respectable person. Young people can do that just buy washing and brushing their hair/shaving (or maintaining a neat beard). As we age we need to put in more effort. Not loads. But a bit.

Also, beauty and attractiveness aren’t the same either and I think it is attractiveness people respond to, more than beauty.
I think someone looking unkempt and like they haven’t bothered with anything is going to be a bit off-putting, whereas being clean and well-presented creates a better impression - nothing mysterious or surprising about that, I don’t think, but it’s not necessarily related to beauty.
Also agree with a pp about the pouty-lipped, spider-lashed people creating an impression of shallow and stupid, but I’m assuming beauty is what they are aiming for. They must get quite mixed responses, surely.

Only half joking.....
Of course looks matter.
Don't forget, you are surrounded by mere humans.
Nice, pleasant face, slim (woman), good clothes etc. (pretended) interest and they are all there, regardless of gender or age.
😆

I totally agree with this. You can have someone classically beautiful/handsome but if they sit there like a mannequin or exhibit negative body language their "power" wears off. You can also have someone not classically beautiful/handsome who is so damn charismatic and charming that they become almost magically magnetic.

I have been electrically attracted to people in the past who really werent classically handsome but my God, every eye in the room was on them the moment they entered because they had this weird X factor that made them devastatingly attractive. I wish I knew what the ingredients for this were- its like a certain type of confidence and body language

Yes I gained 5 stone in an abusive relationship and all my life previous to this I had been slim fit and attractive. Both woman and men treated me differently, I was invisible or the response was negative.
2 years on I am glowing and back to my old self and I am treated well again. It is DEFINITELY a thing.

it shouldn’t but it does matter. I was a slim, blonde with curves and got lots of attention and opportunities when younger , then following children I gained weight and had some health issues , and the opportunities became less , an my strong voice became viewed as aggressive, my intellect was viewed as pushy/know it all .

I have lost 7st and I’m now given much more positive attention , my voice is heard more and appreciated more, my views are sought and considered valid . I discussed with a friend who also had her own weight loss journey and we both feel that there is certainly ‘skinny privilege’ that occurs! It’s sad that it exists, it shouldn’t but it does.

Blimey.

Is it tiring seeing everything through those lenses of yours.

It's well researched that attractive people (man and women) are unconsciously ranked more highly in terms of intelligence and likeability and competence.

Good grooming and good clothes enhance that attractiveness.

And then self-confidence (from being favoured from an early age) tends to manifest in good posture and a positive face, further reinforcing the perception.

Not everything is misogyny
Not everything is about the patriarchy

You’ve made a post about it, so it does sound as though you’re obsessed. Maybe it was how you were feeling inside that was affecting your perception of others? We have polite people and not so polite people in society, and whether someone holds a door open for the person behind them is just down to manners.

Or, it’s the only place on earth where only how you look is considered important. People might make a snap “judgement” i.e make assumptions about who someone is, based on how they present, but this is almost universally superseded by the first social interaction. For example, you might immediately think someone sitting in the park in raggedy clothing with messy hair is homeless, but if they start having a conversation with you about their job as an accountant, your assumptions change.

When people talk about judging (especially on MN) there is an implied superiority, that others are lesser, or would make better decisions than the other person, it comes with bias. In the true definition, judgement is about considered opinion based on actual facts. In which case, it would be true that people aren’t actually judging people on the basis of how they look alone because that isn’t a true judgement.

"unconsciously ranked" - er yes, that's how social conditioning works, isn't it? Few of us go round saying 'I'm really racist' or 'I have contempt for working class people', for example - it's primarily unconscious (other than Reform etc)

In that respect, your criticism of me - that I perversely insist on interpreting the world through a particular lens when there is a simple alternative explanation - is more applicable to those who refuse to see social structures that are blindingly obvious to, say, a foreigner.

I agree that in addition there is probably an atavistic tendency to favour attractive people, and that some aesthetic preferences are also probably innate. (Likewise, that there's likely an element of racism you could describe as innate, in that it's connected to an instinctive awareness / mistrust of difference.)

Yep, pretty privilege exists, especially for women - many studies have shown that we're all more likely to think good-looking people are intelligent, competent, kind, honest etc. Although IME it takes more than one extra stone to get people treating you like you must be thick.

I’m sure you’re right that good-looking people and well-groomed people get treated better in many contexts. But I’m not playing that game. I’m not good-looking and I’m not getting involved in grooming because it’s expensive, time-consuming and utterly tedious. My life is good enough; I’m very contented with what I have and I don’t need more. At best I’m invisible, at worst, people probably think I’m a bag lady but none of that impacts on me, I just go about my day.

Is it possible that despite being fat at times, you have things that outweigh that a bit like very symmetrical or beautiful features, good skin, and generally good hair and teeth? Even without make up or hair styling, I think really good versions of all of those can compensate a lot for weight when affecting first impressions. I don't think there's ever just one single thing going on.

This all very much depends where you are. I live in a working class area and the look you're denigrating is considered completely normal and down to earth. My look is closer to what you think is pretty, but it gets me no end of rude comments from people who think I'm not "making the best of myself". Often they mean well, but they'll say things like "you don't care what you look like" and really think it's true. Because no fake eyelashes, no fake nails means that, to them.

Eventually they get to know me better and the comments switch to what a unique look I have and how they wish they had my confidence.

You can't live your life based on the snap judgements strangers make about you. It's like that old saying, that the people who matter don't mind, and the people who mind don't matter. In that vein, maybe you should stop being so judgemental about their look. If they like it, what's it to you? Let them be happy. The cycle just goes round and round otherwise, and you miss out on friendships for superficial reasons. That's just sad.

The more important lesson would be to treat people with respect, value kindness, hard work and decency. But the take home for you is women should look attractive. Slow hand clap.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to share this.

Im not saying your wrong at all. But I have never experienced this which makes me feel very lucky. I am 10 stone overweight, not good looking, and a plain Jane. But I am very friendly and smiley. I have doors opened for me alot, people of all ages and genders speak to me respectfully. Granted I know none of them are interested romantically but im married with 2 kids so not looking for that.

Haha, I definitely don't have beautiful features! I do have good skin and very long shiny hair, as I have carefully looked after both of them since being a teenager. Overall I am very middle of the road, I don't stand out in a crowd for either beauty or unattractiveness. I think most people fall into this category of being ordinary looking.

I do agree with you that there is never one thing going on when judging appearances and first impressions. I think then there is a difference between looks and appearances.

For example, I have a very big and quick to appear smile and an infectious laugh, and good communication skills (both verbal and non verbal). I think this is far more important than the bare bones of what you actually look like in the impression you make on others for most people. Of course there are exceptions to this, and of course looks matter to a degree. But I think that looks are just a very small part of it, or at least pretty much most people can do something to improve how they appear (e.g. people who look dirty or are in dirty clothes, or looking ungroomed in a most men looking homeless during lockdown when the barbers were closed kind of way) or people who have a facial expression that says 'keep back' because they look angry for example.

I am treated completely differently, particularly by men. I never stopped doing my hair or make up or wearing what I consider nice clothes. Literally was weight and weight alone. It makes me want to vomit how differently I am treated! It’s nothing to do with confidence because I’ve never been self conscious etc. I wasn’t even unhappy with how I looked. It is night and day difference but because it’s not the same people (strangers serving you etc) you couldn’t really call them out on it because there’s always a chance that they would have treated you nicely before anyway.

No one is going to notice someone a stone over their normal weight and make a judgement! If they do, that’s on them! People shouldn’t judge others on their weight, people don’t know how people ended up like that. It’s fine when you’re young, but for over 40 women and men, in fact, weight starts to pile on much quicker. This is why there are so many people ‘on the pen’ of that age.