I dread phone calls with my deep thinking daughter

[Isthatmyleopard]

My daughter is in her mid-20s and an incredibly deep thinker, she studied philosophy, religion and ethics and a MA in philosophy, she is considering a PhD. She was baptised/first communion as a child but we've had little engagement with the church lately, she however has returned, goes to mass often but not weekly. She is incredible, and I am very proud of her, but she never seems to be able to approach a topic lightly. It makes me dread phone calls as seemingly the most basic conversation can be turned into philosophy, theology or sociology. She isn't forcing a belief on me at all more so she is inquisitive, the adult version of a toddler who can't stop asking why and loves to play devils advocate, or have deep conversations about a totally abstract topic. In particular she loves to discuss how different philosophical schools of thought intertwine or compete with religion, the theology of various Christian denominations and the roots of breakaway churches/schisms. I often ask for a lighter phone call just about her life as she has friends and is social and sporty, but after a brief overview it always goes into ... and we spoke about this, followed by her asking questions on my thoughts on the topic. Even discussions about books go far deeper than I can handle. She also does it with sport, we both enjoy tennis but I can never just comment on a match without it turning into a conversation on the sociology of women in sports, the psychology of competition etc.
All that's to say I find it exhausting, if she were just sharing her thoughts I wouldn't mind so much, but it often comes with lots of questions such as what are your thoughts? Why do you think that?

Today we met for lunch and she told me it makes her sad I don't show the same interest in her interests as I do her brothers or call her as often, I explained why and that her brothers are more content with small talk so I find calling them requires less mental energy, she apologised and said she doesn't know how to turn off the deep thinking. She has a long term boyfriend who seems to be interested in the intellectual sparring so I'm not sure why she is so keen to get it from me.

AIBU to find this exhausting? How do I handle it before it damages our relationship?

It is good that she's engaging you and asking your views on things. Many parents have the opposite issue where their kids think they're old and therefore irrelevant or don't respect any views that differ from their own. Or they just don't communicate at all. So I would say overall yours is a good problem to have. This thread is interesting; people seem to be saying there is 'deep' conversation about life and death and so on and then there is talking about Love Island 'small talk'; is there nothing in between?

I think you need a few lighthearted ways of steering to shallower waters.
Maybe ask her what she thinks about Matt Haig’s quote in The Comfort Book:
“Continually looking for the meaning of life is like looking for the meaning of toast. Sometimes it is better just to eat the toast.”

It’s not politically correct to use ‘airheads’, and hasn’t been for a long time.
I would have thought someone as intelligent as you would have known that….

I think I would die of boredom if that was me and if she was just a friend I would have edged away before now. However, she’s your daughter so it’s more difficult to do that. My question is, why is she getting to dictate all the conversation topics? Your desire for small talk is just as valid as her desire for discussions on deeper topics. Maybe a compromise needs to be reached eg half the call is on your topic and half on hers. Or you take turns, one week it’s just small talk, the next time it’s philosophical 🥱 Tough one.

She most likely dreads calls with you just as much tbh. In like your DD and get so very bored with superficial crap.

Of course I’ve learned to mask, I put up with superficial chit chat, I’ve learned the rules of doing it, but I dread it, find it incredibly tedious, I resent it. What I find is if you do it, people think it’s fine snd relax and don’t make the same effort (and God I’m making a massive effort to do it on their terms). So if your DD makes the effort with you and has a “light conversation” (which will probably be stressful for her) please reciprocate back and make an effort with her preferred engagement. I know most people don’t engage in the same way I do, it’s depressing and lonely to the point of its occasionally made me suicidal. Masking is terrible, but a necessary evil to engage with the world. Maybe just provide an outlet for your DD to be herself. Advise her to try and stay in an academic environment as long as poss

I have ADHD and suspect autism though - maybe your DD is the same.

Actually. I think if anyone had emotional intelligence they would most likely observe that the world these days is set up for superficiality. Debate is discouraged (see the increasing focus on binary thinking - which feeds into algorithms), lack of nuance etc. Many people’s brains aren’t wired in this way and not having an outlet to be themselves it very stressful. Anyone with emotional intelligence would be able to spot the issue of telling this group it is unreasonable to be themselves. The DD presumes a conversation with her DM is a safe space to be herself.

It may well be her true self but it is absolutely fine for other people to find anyone’s ’true self’ hard work and extremely tiring.

Not wanting to have a philosophical debate with someone every time you speak isn’t an indication that you are superficial. Or unintelligent. It isn’t an indication of modern decline. It’s perfectly reasonable.

If, every time you spoke to someone, they only wanted to talk about dinosaurs. That’s it. No matter what you asked, it reverted to a conversation that the other person dominated, about dinosaurs - what’s your favourite dinosaur? Why? Do you know what group that dinosaur is from? Why do you think you prefer sauropods? Is it their size - what do you think made the so successful? - you’d start to go slightly mad. Regardless of how much you loved them, how passionate they clearly were about dinosaurs, how nice it is that they want to share their passion with you, how neurodivergent they may or may not be… because it’s absolutely exhausting having to repeatedly engage in deep, repeat conversations about things that you don’t have deep opinions on. Like cool, I am enjoying this on a superficial level, but it’s YOUR special interest, not mine.

I’ll talk to her for you. I’d love such conversations!

Reads to me she wants a bit more connection with you like you have with your sons.

My mum and I do the small chat stuff, but I get exactly like you do with your daughter because there is only so much small talk to do! It gets to the point that there are gaps of silence or repeating things over and over. I know my mum hates the talks you complain about so I have to think of things to ask about otherwise the call would be under 10 minutes. The only difference now is that I have children and that is the main topic because neither of our lives are particularly exciting and it’s her talking to them and me talking to my niece when she has her and then holding the phones so the kids can talk to each other.

I think it’s nice you have the relationship where your daughter feels comfortable enough she can tell you how she feels. I definitely wouldn’t be able to tell my own mother without her getting defensive. My mother also wouldn’t think anything of it because she has my sister and they do hours of small talk and always have been. I’ve had years of listening to them where I learned to bring books or headphones, or sink into my mind and focus on the environment outside to keep myself occupied. My mother and sister have a lot of the same interests and things in common so it is way easier for them whereas the things I like are not their taste so I don’t talk about it.

DH mum’s does the same as my mum and it’s a bit easier for him because it’s local chat she is telling him about but he will tell her that he has no idea who she’s on about and why would he be concerned about people he’s never met or going to meet in a joking manner , she still does it and he still listens and they talk 2-4 times a week vs my mum once a week.

If this was a daughter who dreaded phoning her mother because she always steered the conversation towards philosophical questions, most of the posters here would be telling her not to phone as often, or to try and engage her on more general subjects. That her mother clearly wasn’t interested in her as a person. This daughter is an adult, not a small child who needs to be indulged about where Thomas the Tank Engine’s brain is located. Or why fairies sit on poisonous toadstools. Parents have just as much of a right to expect reciprocal treatment as their adult offspring.

Not so sure about that.

Plenty of times I’ve seen “she’s your mother…”, “you only have one mum”, or “my mum is dead/gone and I wish for her to call me again.”

Plus, plenty of posters have wrote similiar as you about it.

I agree! She sounds hard work and I say this as a PhD psychologist. It’s incredibly self-absorbed to expect others to engage in this level of questioning to fulfil her own needs. I imagine a lot of people avoid her.

That’s a fair point. There is a variety of views. But only remembering those supporting a daughter complaining about her mum suited my argument better😅

"I don't understand this post. Teaching other people the thing is a job in the field, as far as theology and philosophy are concerned. What other jobs in those fields do you think there are, apart from becoming a professor? I suppose with theology you could become a minister, but isn't that just another form of teaching people the thing?"

This is exactly my point, there are no jobs in this field, beyond teaching. Its just a pointless loop of teaching people to teach people to teach people something that outside of teaching as no real world application.

You ignored my second paragraph. Sounds like academia isn't for you, which is fine. But it is for some people, which is why there is a (small, but existing) market for professors in those subjects - people want to study it. Not sure why supplying that market is less 'real world' than anything else.

I agree with the other posters who suggest your daughter needs to learn two way, reciprocal conversation.

To wang on about one’s own interests, regardless of whether the person with whom one is conversing is similarly invested or not, is either a sign of deep selfishness or neurodivergence.

Earlier you have dismissed any suggestion of your daughter being autistic, OP, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if she is (in my experience, some of the deepest thinkers are ND). Lots of folk think they know what autism ‘looks like’. My own (very cognitively able) daughter is ASC, and we have made it a priority to try to encourage her higher level thinking without indulging her; to teach her, at times, to feign interest in others, because we don’t want her to live in a ‘bubble’ - eventually, she will need to manage in the Real World. We won’t be around forever.

To be clear; this does not suggest any ‘dumbing down’ (the sheer haughtiness/ arrogance of this thread at times is staggering! I know Mumsnet loathes ANY suggestion that actually really a great many smart but challenged people could by ND. But I expect many of the more academic contingent defensively posting here are also autistic).

Nuance and ‘meaning’ are multiple faceted. One can enjoy a theological deep dive AND a gossip about Celeb Traitors too!

You sound like a caring, engaged, really lovely Mum.

YABVU..
I'd love this. You are also unkind and rude to tell her you prefer the mindless chatter with your son. Your poor dd.

It’s not politically correct to use airheads
How about depth-averse or nincompoop?

I have someone in my life like this and I also avoid them. There is something really off about trying to intellectually wrestle or question someone who doesn’t have any knowledge about the subject.

I’ve done this with my DSes, too. They have been drilled to say, ‘how are you?’ and to respond appropriately. Developing reciprocal conversational skills is probably top-3 ‘life skills’ and will serve them well in any situation (because what is life if not navigating a range of situations?)

DS1 has an autism diagnosis (and ADHD) and does still struggle socially. Most people aren’t ’his people’. However, he is slowly learning that even if people are ‘shallow’ and ‘annoying’, he still needs to meet them in the middle. And be able to politely converse with them.

Beautiful post! Yes, we can enjoy all different forms of conversation. It shouldn’t be dominated by one person if it is indeed, a conversation.

Developing reciprocal conversational skills is probably top-3 ‘life skills’ and will serve them well in any situation (because what is life if not navigating a range of situations?)

I'd agree with this. What are good ways to teach youngsters to engage in reciprocal conversation?

With any degree you learn a host of transferable skills in addition to the subject specific history/facts/knowledge - you learn critical analysis, how to research, how to synthesise information, how to write different formats of essay/dissertation/research papers, how to present/debate/public speaking. All within a wider context of (say) theology. But the point is that you don't spend 3-4 years only developing theological knowledge.

I did theology as an undergraduate, the reason I chose it was because it touched on a whole array of subjects including history, sociology, psychology and languages (Hebrew and Arabic were options). I'm now a data analyst, which is a completely unrelated field, but I use the research, critical analysis, and communication skills I learnt during my undergraduate degree every day.

It also scratched the itch of being able to delve into broader philosophical and religious debates early in my life so I could know what I believed in - many people start getting interested in these subjects later on in life.

Everyone has beliefs, even if they don't align with a particular organised religious or philosophical framework - part of the beauty of learning about religion and philosophy is that you get to understand the people around you more. You can be more comfortable around people with different beliefs and engage with them with curiosity and empathy rather than outright dismissing them as being wrong/ignorant/something other than what you are. That's a massive societal benefit beyond just learning about different dogma.

My final point is that everything in academia has a way of eventually trickling down to the mundane and everyday - sure, professor x might be spending all their time researching the Dead Sea Scrolls and maybe that doesn't interest you, but then that research gets picked up by non academics, twisted into a fictional narrative, and suddenly we have a multi million dollar blockbuster e.g. the Da Vinci Code which lots of people worldwide can enjoy and discuss and maybe sparks some intellectual/philosophical interest and the cycle continues.

The TL;DR is that you need to look at the wider context of what academia provides rather than what appears at surface level.

And yes, I'm just like OP's daughter. I can engage in small talk but find it frustratingly boring. If a conversation isn't funny or deep or useful to me then I would much rather read a book by myself

Honestly this threat is mad. It's fine that the op doesn't want to discuss deep philosophical issues every time they speak. Some times she might just want to know how the dds tennis match went ? . It doesn't make her a airhead or any other terms that have been bandied about on this thread. Of course there is also nothing wrong with sitting down over a glass of wine of a lazy meal and talking about the big life issues , it's how you really get to know someone but it's all about give and take and it does sound like dd struggles to have any conversation that's not 'meaningful' .. To be able to balance both us an important live skill and it doesn't mean you need to talk about Love Island or the going's on at Easyenders. It's likely this dd while super smart and interesting might struggle socially if she continues to be only have one type of conversation .

I think it’s the assumption that someone is ND that people loathe going off an OP’s feelings/perspective about their own child.

Her daughter could be poorly trying to connect with her mother without her needing to be classed as ND or suspected ND.

If she was doing the type of talking OP would prefer, I think fewer would be claiming ND because such talk is considered normal, every day, surface level, expected chat from what several posters have written.

I’m still working on it; mine are 13 and 9 however, we have LOTS of conversations about every topic under the sun and nobody is allowed to monologue. And I model asking lots of questions. When DS1 was little, I told him that his teacher wanted to talk about something other than Pokémon, because it wasn’t her favourite thing, even though it was his. He now chats to his teachers about Celebrity Traitors and whatever they are interested in, so we’ve made some headway.

I have a couple of (ASD) friends who always monologue and never ask questions. I strongly suspect that they were told that asking questions was rude/nosy when they were little, and have internalised that message.