To expect my AuDHD young teen to understand the impact of his behaviour on rest of family?

[Thebabycheeses78]

Trying to get my AuDHD DS to get his things together ready for early flight back home. We are staying with family. It is taking forever to do something that has taken my other kids 15 minutes to do.

It’s not just this evening- it’s the same drill all the time. Constant nagging and standing over him to get him to do basic tasks.

and of course, it always descends into a shouting match. If I sound even slightly irate after asking him to do something 10 times, he starts screaming and shouting about how I’m shouting at him.

I end up frazzled and upset. Every trip, every day out, every weekend is like this. I even have to cajole and drag him around to things he wants to go to.

I’d hoped we’d have all been packed 2 hours ago, but it has taken this long to get him moving and he’s still not finished. It means the evening is ruined for everyone and our last day of holiday has been stressful.

he is high functioning. He does well at school. He is someone who will very likely go to university, get a job and outwardly appear functional. But I worry about him- I can see his wife on mumsnet in 25 years at the end of her tether because he won’t adult.

any suggestions on how to get through to him about the impact he is having on others?

You don’t say how old he is.
I wonder if he would act this way if he was on a school trip and a teacher was making the requests as you do.
i think he has (whilst undiagnosed) found negative coping mechanisms. He has a “role” in the family and it’s to get attention by disrupting things slightly. He emotionally regulates himself using your patience and he needs your attention so he keeps doing things to get it.
i expect he doesn’t want to pack as it involves steps and his ADhD brain just wants to get to the last step immediately. What he really wants is for you to do it for him hence why he’s playing up.

it will be very difficult to remove or change the dynamic you have, especially if his father was similar. This behaviour is both nature and nurture so it’s doubly reinforced. Nature = ADHD brain. Nurture =learned behaviour from his father.

You need your son onboard with both understanding why the dynamic is how it is and wanting to change and he seems a bit young for this.

the executive functioning issues of his ADHD will really hinder his ability to understand his role in the dynamic.

@PennyLaneisinmyheartandmysoul it’s not that you can’t make requests it’s just learning how to make them so they are low demand. There are lots of resources online (PDA website etc) but I’ll admit it’s hard to retain all the info you need and have it hand when needed. Very much a case of thinking of scenarios in advance and planning how to handle them.

Please stop referring to him as ‘high functioning’. All this does is means that he is less likely to get the support that he needs for his considerable difficulties in some areas. If you mean that he doesn’t have learning difficulties, then you could say that. However, he obviously has some pretty significant challenges with executive function, demand avoidance and possibly rejection sensitivity. In these areas, he definitely isn’t ’high functioning’.

Is it the case that they really, truly can’t get dressed - or is it the case that they want to do something more interesting and getting dressed is not a priority

It's one and the same thing - there is something more interesting or a thought pops into their head or they zone out or forget what they were doing. You make it sound like they could, if they chose, just prioritise getting dressed. The fact they can't is the whole problem.

Which is not to be defeatist and just write him off as being incapable as with the right support and strategies it can be significantly easier BUT the fact that they can be helped doesn't negate the disabling impact of the condition.

YANBU OP. I'm no expert and you've got some good advice on here. Ignore all the self-proclaimed neurodiversity elite who have absolutely relished telling you off.

OP, I absolutely feel your pain. Our 13 year old is very much the same. With tasks such as this, we find visual lists can be helpful. Where not appropriate, or not working, body doubling is helpful, or just working with him and offering repeated prompts.

That said, we also often end up getting impatient. It's all very well to understand etc, but int he real world, sometimes we just need things done. And it is very hard to be patient all the time, especially when even the most simple task requires a lot of parental input (& we have had CBT, OT etc).

Going off and doing something more interesting instead (what you label as "won't" not "can't") is exactly what can be caused by a number of different bits of brain wiring not functioning in a typical way. For instance, less ability to sustain focus, less dopamine, more impulsivity, a shorter time horizon. Executing any action is not like flicking a switch - it's a multi-step process at various points of which things can go wrong.

In any case, I don't think you need to worry that there's a dominant narrative saying people with ADHD can't do things and shouldn't try. The dominant narrative is that ADHD isn't real, it's all just lazy people making excuses.

I spent decades of my life trying to be better just by waking up with the mantra that today I would do everything right. Telling myself that I could, so all I needed to do was keep deciding that I would, did nothing by itself. What helped was understanding that this was a complex situation of my brain sabotaging me and that what I needed to do was to stop feeling ashamed and start finding strategies.

I understand totally. When your child is high functioning there is no appropriate help really. Its wearing. Keep going. My son is 23 now and doing well. First at Uni, good job, travels....but those basics......im still nagging but its paid off. He's living his life. Does he realise how frazzled he makes me? Nope. Does he care? Maybe?

That's the thing - you want him to get a 'handful of things'. A handful of things is about 65 separate thoughts all running on from each one, combined with 'Mum's getting stressed, I can hear sibling 1 running around, what's that on TV? I like that, I wonder whether Godzilla would beat Mechagodzilla if he had to pack a bag each time? That bit with the girl in the rain was really good and and and and and What do you mean, my things? What things? I don't know, it's going to be a pain when we get home because I'm going to have to unpack and she'll get stressed with me and there will be stuff all around and socks? what about my socks? they're on my feet. I've got some red sock that Dad got me, he's really mad that Mum's taken me to a shrink because she thinks I'm not right in the head, he hates that she thinks I'm stupid and is that a bird or a Pterodactyl outside? The ones in Kong were really cool and Samuel L Jackson was great but he was in Marvel movies as Nick Fury and he was good in that too but toothbrush? What about it? I don't know, it's just on the shelf in the bathroom at home and we're not at home so I don't know where it is and WHAT? STOP SHOUTING AT ME WHY DO YOU HATE ME SO MUCH, you never want to spend time with me and I can see it in your face that you're avoiding me and I just want to go home and see Dad but then he gets mad because I'm taking medication and says there's nothing wrong with me and and and and and and and and and and' <buffering circle spins indefinitely>

Much as it's difficult for you, the computer based analogy could be that he's got 2 computers, three screens, 357 separate tabs open, is looking stuff up on his phone and you're trying to get him to sort the cabling out down the back at the same time as writing a 9500 word essay on Zen and the Works of Jane Austen with a quill pen and homemade purple ink and there are constant message alerts pinging around him. He's overclocked, overheating and task manager can't run with that amount of RAM demand, so he can't even close down some of the windows and processes.

Bravo mom. I really mean it. He has a disability & will find it harder but he is capable & for his benefit & those around him it’s best he learns now by his mom who has all the unconditional love to give than a pent up frustrated wife who just can’t deal with him anymore. My son isn’t neuro diverse but he’s bloody frustrating all the same. He has the habit of losing things coats shoes & his favourite school ties. The uniform shop lady often asking what I’m there for. She knows the school & his house colour! She says she’s not met a kid as bad as he is for losing things. So just before his birthday he comes home in his pe kit as it’s last lesson minus any of his uniform. Luckily he has multiple. But upon opening card for his bday I promised to take him shopping which is a promise I kept. Straight to the uniform shop to replace the missing items & I ordered a new pair of shoes from next. He was upset & annoyed. (Even though I had asked for several days to check lost property to get it back which he said he had done). I promised I’d refund him each item he returns & the very next day it all came back home after magically appearing in lost property. He hasn’t lost anything since and wished I’d gave done it sooner & not the latter year of y10

I don't think anyone's saying it is that straightforward!

I'm ND, DH is NT. Some things I am naturally much more capable at than him - sometimes in spite of being ND, sometimes because I'm ND, sometimes things that have very little to do with being NT/ND at all. It's not a one way street - I make accommodations for him on some things (I've never met anyone with worse sense of direction, he could get lost crossing the street). I wouldn't class myself as being "disabled" but I'd say being ND is sometimes disabling, and has had a significant detrimental impact on parts of my life. Reminding him sometimes that some things don't come easily to me is helpful!

Routines have to be so embedded that they are just what I automatically do, on autopilot. So I automatically get up in the morning, empty the dishwasher, put away the dry clothes, put another wash on etc... They don't bore me because I'm not consciously having to think about them and they don't require effort.

Things that do require thought/effort (like sorting out the 'doom' pile in the corner of of the kitchen counter, because I have to make decisions about what to do with the stuff in that pile) are much harder for my brain to start/deal with. So that's when I have to 'project-manage' myself and set timers and plan how to deal with the task to avoid my brain rebelling and shutting down.

This is impossible. How can you possibly nake all of these accomodations when you have 2 other children to support. I fear that the ND card trumps everything, when actually, he just needs to pack his own case.

Everyone is different. My experience of AuDHD is that it is hard to do something like packing but it is possible, with a bit of discipline and some distraction - ie a podcast or something similar.
We shouldn’t assume this is an impossible task for op’s son - it may be the case that it is just a bit harder.
If he was in the army and a sgt major was telling him to do it or a super strict and scary teacher - would he be shouting and screaming back?
I am absolutely not saying that shouting and ordering is the way to go btw or people with AuDHD don’t have enough discipline - but I am saying that AuDHD is a spectrum and we shouldn’t automatically limit people on it.

I know the pattern you are in. I have been here before, you know, I know, it doesn't work what you are doing now. I also have ADHD and hold down a complex, technical job, BUT packing a bag can take me up to 4-5 hours on the way out and an hour on the way back. My tips:

1. Start early even the day before
2. Prepare a list of what needs to go in the bag- I keep one in my suitcase to prevent me leaving/ missing things. You could do this for repetitive tasks in the house e.g. we have a tick list on the fridge for getting out the house in the morning. He ticks the list- I dont keep asking/ nagging if he has done the things.
3. Ask if he needs help and if he says yes, only help with the things you have been asked to help with. Keep speaking to a minimum.
4. NEVER raise your voice- it is a game over from that point on.
5. Break up the tasks and suggest a reward/ break after each mini-task. Mine is a cup of tea normally. I get a bit overwhelmed with tasks like this that involve lots of internal questions and a high potential for side quests unrelated to the task of packing.
6. Let him know the time it needs to be done by. Maybe talk to him about when he thinks would be a good time to make a start and what the first job will be.
7. However little he has done, praise him. 'Great start, you found the bag and have it open ready to go'.
8. Don't give multi-step tasks all at once.
9. It is hard to get your head round. Intellectually we know we need to get this shit done but the path never runs smooth and it can be overwhelming.

I know you are talking day to day and I have focused on packing but I think these points apply. I have asked my partner not to speak to me and especially not to ask me questions when I am packing for a holiday. Or ask me to come and help him/ look at something when I am trying to pack or do The Thing, whatever it is.

It is hard, you've come here for some advice not to feel about it all. Hope this helps. Try and avoid stuff like 'why it always like this', 'you never....', 'why haven't you'. My self-esteem is pretty low and I feel a lot of shame around the stuff I find difficult...and I am an adult.

Blimey O'Reilly. I'm exhausted just reading the list.

I have to start prepping for even a short trip about 3 weeks before. I have massive lists. I keep kits for travel that I can reuse. It still takes me hours and hours of time over those weeks. I can’t do it any faster. That I can accomplish the task with very careful planning is the achievement.

Im a senior level employee at my company. I handle major issues all the time. I don’t lack intelligence. Packing is just a huge task and stressor. It is the deviation from routine and the preparation for the unknown that make it so difficult.

Highly recommend this book too. The one for adults is also excellent

I am exactly the same 🫣

Most of my life is routine and done on autopilot to the point that I don’t even think about it - but when I have to do something different (like pack, or clean out a cupboard, or organise my car) I can’t do it without a whole load of steps and organisation in my own head and mostly I end up not bothering.

I am very much “out of sight, out of mind” with things too so once mess is shoved in a cupboard or my car it doesn’t bother me, which doesn’t help!

What do you mean? I didn't list anything to do, I gave an example of what could be going on in his head and an analogy that might help explain why 'just pack' is so difficult.

It's not a card.

If you don't have a ND child how do you know what it is like?

I have children both of which found themselves in a 2 year school group in the worse class. Having children bitten, stabbed with pencils (where one kid now has a permanent blue face tattoo) chairs thrown in class & the education levels of one class surpassing the other. Do you know how sympathetic the kids are who don’t want to play with children doing that. Do you want to know how the parents view that child & their families when they see their kid come out with a cold compress on a face bite. There’s no sympathy. The they can’t help it they get overwhelmed is a very tired excuse when they have had years of it. My child was more severely punished after being scratched in the face with a pen right by his eye because he hit back than the kid that lashed out all because my son picked up a prit stick. It was explained to me & my son although he didn’t instigate the scenario he must know this kid has additional needs and my son should know better. To which my reply was if you can’t keep my son safe he will defend himself. That he was lucky it wasn’t his eye as it was right on the edge of it. Guess what. That child had never had a repercussion for his behaviour & that day he did & he never touched my lad again. Even getting a comment on how he seems to be able to control his anger when it comes to my son. I found out later that he was sat next to my son as he was less likely to lash out & I didn’t like it either using my 6 yo as a way to control another’s behaviour. These kids are still children & children without boundaries & discipline will play up. So yes a ND parent may have it harder but so do other parents. Single moms, kids with hearing & sight disabilities all have a harder job & yet they’re expected to parent. A high functioning autistic child if guided & taught can have a normal life. Using excuses despite how valid they are will not help any child in future. The sooner you teach them coping strategies and the repercussions of their actions the happier they’ll be

Yes - what appears to be a "won't" is actually a manifestation of "can't". The "can't" lies precisely in usually requiring one of those strategies or circumstances that e.g. increase focus from the baseline. So it's really "can't [reliably and efficiently do this without circumstances or using strategies that work for people who have AuDHD]" (like the ones you describe) not "can't ever". It's still not just a plain "won't" (which implies wilful refusal and a moral failing).

So yes obviously it's important to tell kids with these conditions that there are things that will help them get tasks done, so it's not the case that they just can't do them ever, just as you wouldn't say to a wheelchair user that they can't ever do something that actually just needs some adaptations. Equally however it's important for them to understand that just winging it, without paying attention to using those strategies, is likely to lead to problems. Teenagers like to be normal and like their friends, and the lesson that actually this is a disability that needs proactive strategies, not just winging it, is also one they'll eventually need to learn (the hard way, sometimes).

You are giving your daughter amazing support and I also do much of what you do, but you have made me realise that the “limpet” behaviour you describe is also what I see in my AuDHD daughter! I hadn’t put two and two together, so thank you 🙏

There a couple of reputable organisations that do it. The one I am doing is accredited by the ICF and I will be qualified as a general life coach, as well as able to focus on ADHD.

This is who I am training with. It is US based and is all online, but you do end up with a network of other trainee coaches who support each other. It’s not cheap though - but I am really happy with it so far.

Happy to answer any questions if you dm me.

https://addca.com/