To expect my AuDHD young teen to understand the impact of his behaviour on rest of family?

[Thebabycheeses78]

Trying to get my AuDHD DS to get his things together ready for early flight back home. We are staying with family. It is taking forever to do something that has taken my other kids 15 minutes to do.

It’s not just this evening- it’s the same drill all the time. Constant nagging and standing over him to get him to do basic tasks.

and of course, it always descends into a shouting match. If I sound even slightly irate after asking him to do something 10 times, he starts screaming and shouting about how I’m shouting at him.

I end up frazzled and upset. Every trip, every day out, every weekend is like this. I even have to cajole and drag him around to things he wants to go to.

I’d hoped we’d have all been packed 2 hours ago, but it has taken this long to get him moving and he’s still not finished. It means the evening is ruined for everyone and our last day of holiday has been stressful.

he is high functioning. He does well at school. He is someone who will very likely go to university, get a job and outwardly appear functional. But I worry about him- I can see his wife on mumsnet in 25 years at the end of her tether because he won’t adult.

any suggestions on how to get through to him about the impact he is having on others?

To add that the volatility will get worse if you’re trying to do this in the moment

review a couple of days after it’s happened or a couple of days in advance.

Absolutely I take your point.
The point I am making is that at times there is a tendency to blur the need for support and patience with a limitation.
It might be harder for someone to do certain things and it’s of course wring to get angry/impatient but it’s not impossible.

Op has already said she has read widely.......

My son is AuDHD. He is 18.
It helps to know biological age compared to executive function age is very different for ND individuals.
At 18 his EF is more like a 12 year old so he still needs extra support and help with lifeskills.
For packing i would recommend body doubling - you sit in the room with him while he packs his stuff up. If he goes off task you can bring him back to the task in hand.
I get your frustration but he will need support for longer due to his neurodivergence.
I'd recommend seeking out other parents of ND young adults. There are many with great feeds on facebook/instagram that would give you some great advice. Alternatively see if there are any parenting courses run locally via autism/adhd charities.

“So hooked, in fact I ignore my body's signals for hunger, thirst and needing the bathroom. - this is why hyperfocuses can be extremely disabling too.”
@Jimmyneutronsforehead

this has been one of the final straws for me in understanding that I, too, am ADHD. I have had issues with apparent urge incontinence since a child - took me being diagnosed and talking about the fact that I ignore the signals until I am desperate and then get into embarrassing situations, so for some years I’ve been reluctant to leave the house for fear of having an accident. ADHD meds - and some meds for an overactive bladder - have changed my life and improved my marriage. No accidents, no tena pads or tenapants. Never even soil a pantyliner after a lifetime of fearing I smell or will leak. Because ND is a neurological condition, people don’t realise it impacts your whole nervous system (CNS and ANS). I’d had an operation and been referred to the physios four or five times with no effect, but talking to a GP re my condition through the lens of my AuDHD meant I finally got the treatment I needed. A tiny bloody tablet daily.

I also realised that my eating was dysregulated due to AuDHD as I don’t really register hunger when , and can confuse boredom/distress/anxiety with hunger pangs - and then can overeat as don’t really feel full unless bursting. We all also suffer migraine when overstimulated. It’s not just about social skills and SEN.

I was going to post something along these lines. I suspect that I, and several members of my family, probably have ND traits (and two would probably meet full criteria these days). I find packing really really difficult and so does DD1.

On the one hand, greater understanding and strategies can only be a good thing.

But on the other hand, I think many/most people with high-functioning autism/ADHD can do most things; they just find it difficult. It's perhaps doing them and everyone else a disservice to give endless adjustments.

Also, "mum" can't be responsible for everything and everyone all the time. With the packing example, mum needs to pack her own stuff as well as remember a million other things before going away. Given that ND is often genetic, perhaps she has ND traits too and finds packing difficult. Or perhaps dad has ND traits and mum is already thinking for two adults as well as her teens.

In short I think the empathy and strategies are a great idea, but I don't think mum should feel too guilty if she sounds a bit "stressy" when asking a 15 yo for the 11th time to pack his case. Yes mum has to accept her DS's struggles, but DS also has to learn that mum is not a perfect saint and that in the end he just has to do it, even if it's hard.

I think you're confusing can't do something with won't do something.

You can't willpower through a neurological disability. You can't will it away.

Neurodivergent conditions often display in really confusing ways because you may be able to pack your suitcase on one day, and the next time you do it you might be completely overwhelmed and not be able to do it at all.

Adjustments don't have to be doing the thing for the person struggling but they are ways that help the person manage their tasks. For tasks like suitcases which are not a regular occurrence in most households those tasks will always be harder because you don't always have the tools necessary to pre-consider what will need to be done. Aids and cues and reminders in simple steps can be a big adjustment that is helpful without doing the task for the person, but are caregivers to disabled people you have to accept that sometimes you just need to do the thing they cannot do. It is a lifelong developmental disability.

Also neurodivergence is thought to be largely genetic but not necessarily hereditary in all cases. It is true that it's highly likely one or more parents will have the condition, but not a fact that one or both will have neurodivergence. It's also true siblings are at an increased chance of having neurodivergence but again not a guarantee that they will.

I agree that DS needs to understand his mum is a human too. It's ok for her to be frustrated, this is her first time on this planet too. Empathy can be a huge key to understanding and growing and learning together. Understanding that your parents are also human too doesn't suddenly stop you being disabled though, empathy and love are not enough to make your brain operate in ways it can not consistently operate.

I think you're confusing can't do something with won't do something.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I think there is a very grey area between "can't" and "won't", especially when it comes to neurodiversity or anxiety/depression. I'm not sure any of us know where the line is at times.

I understand what you mean.

I think I am very privileged to have been offered some specific neurodivergent tailored therapy, and it's helped me break down tasks into

Can't do at all
Can't do yet as I am conserving my energy for a future task
Can't do without substantial support
Can do with minimal support
Can do alone
Won't do and Why

There are things that I do daily that are rigidly in each of these categories and there are other things I do daily that might be a Can do alone one day, and can't do yet or can't do without substantial support another day.

Without the specific therapy I was offered post diagnosis, a whole year wait after, I think it would have been easy to see things as Can do, can't do and won't do.

I suppose a won't do for myself would have been touching wet laundry. It's a huge sensory trigger for me, and when I lived alone it would spoil the rest of my day, it was neurologically painful, it took me a significantly long time compared to other people, and it ate into time where I had other rigid routines that I couldn't compromise with. With the right support though, it has turned into a Can't do without significant support and sometimes a can do with minimal support. I can do it alone, if I have hours to get it done. I'm going to sound like I'm reciting a PIP form, but it's based on my ability to do it in a timely, reliably and safe way so all of these things need to be considered when I am working out what sort of support I need to get things done. So I am always asking myself, can I do this alone in a timely, reliable and safe way? Which of these areas is my weakest area and what sort of help can I ask for to overcome this challenge. Thinking like this has been really helpful in planning for tasks.

I'd say by now you should know that "usual" org stuff takes longer time for your son and requires prompting and reminders. Which means you need to help him start earlier, put reminders, keep the process simple, etc. With audhdh/adhd children shouting just makes them triggered and deregulated. Presumably you would have learned it by now.

I agree it's a grey area but I think it's far more frequent that people mistake "can't" for "won't" than the other way around so it bears repeating the message.

My AuDHD child becomes dysregulated when he feels bad about himself or shamed or knows he’s done something wrong. It just makes everything worse. You just have to keep supporting, modelling, body doubling, and if they can’t then do it for them so it doesn’t impact the rest of the family. It’s really tough you wonder if you’ll ever get there.

I had this problem with my ADHD child. When he was a young teen, he thought that I tried to impose routines on him for the sake of annoying him but at age 17ish realised that routines make his life much easier because there’s less chance of him forgetting stuff or spending too much time procrastinating about stuff he hasn’t done. He has his own routines now. For example he empties his bedroom bin into the wheelie bin outside the day before bin day and knows that if he has a plan to go out later then he should wash his favourite clothes now so there’s plenty of time to dry it too. He does his laundry on fixed days and goes to bed/wakes up at the same time as he’s finally learned that it’s the best way to feel energetic and positive. Left to his own devices, he eats at weird times but he’s learning and it doesn’t affect me.

I suspect that he doesn’t understand why you’re packing early rather than just before you leave tomorrow.

I also suspect that as someone with autism, he can’t tell the difference between the different types of annoyed and is jumping to “shouting “ which is extreme exaggeration that NT teens use as a defence mechanism too. Eg “No, you can’t have £20 to go out” “You NEVER give me money for fun because you want me to be miserable !!!”

The most “peaceful” method to survive would be for you to do it. I know that this keeps him younger than his biological age but he has a different profile or abilities compared to his peers. Is he the type to keep a messy room at home and frequently looking for things? He hasn’t learned why you’ve explained to do things like tidy his shoes in one place so that he can find them again.

No, YANBU.
I have Asperger's myself.
Of course you aren't expecting too much.
The thing is, if situation was the same here as it used to be for my generation (scared for life and well being if failed to comply), your high functioning child would understand.

This is typical ADHD behaviour. They have very poor executive function skills and get completely overwhelmed by tasks like packing. If he had a physical disability, would you be shouting at him to hurry up? Try and understand why this is so difficult for him and help by packing together. This is a disability, not laziness.

We have a basket for each child by the front door. School bag gets dumped there when home, so it is always in a known place for the next day. I have to remind to empty lunch box and water bottle. We have the same routine every morning and a check list for everything that needs to happen. You can buy check lists with sliding buttons to change to "yes" when the task is completed.

Op, isn’t this something to do with what used to be called/perhaps still is ‘theory of mind’. So no, I suspect he doesn’t really understand the impact.

OP, I tend to let my AuDHD teens/YA live out of their cases on holiday if they want, and then plan something for the journey (like lunch/tourist thing on the way to the airport) or food/shopping at the airport (depending on flight times, etc) to motivate them to leave by a certain time to fit that thing in.

Obviously it’s harder staying with family as there’s no official check-out time and there are more personalities and variables that could trigger them or cause delays, but when we have set travel plans, the key bit of advice I can give is always leave far longer than you think it will take to get everyone ready and out of the door.

The combination of Christmas, foreign travel, staying with family, lack of normal routine and having critical externally-imposed deadlines all contributes a huge amount of stress which inevitably leads to poorer executive function than the norm, so I think it’s something you’re best off trying to merely survive rather than worrying too much about it feeling stressful and sub-optimal - it’s the reason we tend to alternate going away and staying home for Christmas!

Also, it’s very easy to slip into worrying that how a teen is now (infuriating) will be who they are in the future, but I’ve found my YA DC have developed a whole load of coping skills they definitely didn’t have when they were teens, so it doesn’t mean DS will always handle this situation the same way, and it certainly doesn’t mean his fate is sealed - he has plenty of time to learn what works for him and develop his own coping skills, and it sounds like he’s got a lot going for him and is headed in the right direction.

I don't think saying it's a disability is meant to convey the idea that people don't have a responsibility to try to get things done themselves, despite their disability, and without relying more on other people than they have to. (That responsibility is actually there for a lot of physical disabilities too.)

It's more about trying to get people to see that if you have ADHD you can't just decide to, say, get organised and not forget things, and then that will just happen when you want it badly enough. There's a permanent brain wiring issue similar to a mobility issue, and that's at the root of the problem, not being a bad or lazy person or otherwise morally failing.

Saying something is a disability isn't making it bigger than it is or saying the person shouldn't aim high, it's just saying it's not a choice. "Deciding to be a better person" won't make it go away. "Deciding to be a better person" might help with motivation to work hard over years at the mitigations and tricks and techniques that can reduce the impact of a disability, but it won't just fix it. It won't make the OP's ds magically be able to function exactly like his siblings do right now.

Hi, we have the same thing going on here and you have my sympathies. It is so hard in a way that people don’t understand unless it is happening at their home.

The arguing over grey areas, the tone of voice used, the inability to see things from someone else’s perspective make it to hard to be in the same room when there is a task for him to complete. I think that he is unreasonable, he thinks that I am unreasonable and it takes all the effort to try to help him and then be spoken to in such a horrible way.

I sometimes get it wrong because it is impossible to get it right all the time. I have strong boundaries and I tell him that I love him and I am trying to help him so that he understands the way the world is.

And as you can see from the some people who have replied telling you what to do and implying that you are doing things wrong, it can feel totally demoralising and unhelpful. There is very little help out there and my heart hurts when he doesn’t have as many friends as my other child. And he does want friends. He is kind and honest and very intelligent- he is getting top marks ant school and we are plodding on as best as we can, having as many laughs as possible. He is getting there. Small wins but sometimes he does something incredibly thoughtful which means so much.

Hang in there. You sound like a great mum 💐

Hi OP.

I'm autistic (late diagnosed) and one of the things I struggle with the most is the fact that I can't cope with some really basic, everyday tasks. It makes me feel so bad that someone has to nag me into doing something that I tend to just shut down and not try at all.

Someone saying "all you need to do is X" just makes me feel totally incompetent and useless, because I know that's all I need to do, but that doesn't mean I can actually get up and do it.

Doing something out of my routine (like packing, or booking my car in for its' MOT) is so hard for me that I either put it off until the Nth hour or stress over it for weeks/months in advance because the idea of making a certain phone call or going on a website just makes me want to throw up. I know in my mind that it's irrational but that doesn't make it any easier.

I'm not sure that there's an easy solution but for now I would recommend taking the pressure off and either just doing it yourself or (if there are no major consequences) letting him do it in his own time, rather than on your imposed schedule.

Op, I 100% get where you’re coming from, and am fairly desperate for any practical help with DD. Life with her can be so challenging and I know it’s harder for her but that doesn’t stop it being very impactful for anyone close to her. I worry desperately for her future and especially her future relationships. To most of the outside world she appears to have it all - super academic, popular, able to mask amazingly well. But I know how incredibly hard doing seemingly basic things is and how deeply frustrating it is for her and us. I rarely shout but even a slight tension or change in my voice makes DD crumple or explode. Everyday we seem to have these explosive episodes (her shouting at me). It’s very draining.

Well, there is no simple answer to that and as others have said there are grey areas. Is it the case that they really, truly can’t get dressed - or is it the case that they want to do something more interesting and getting dressed is not a priority. It takes them a bit longer but with the right strategies and support it will happen.
The question of ‘can’t’ v ‘won’t’ is a really difficult one.
Personally, I think it is certainly not as simple as saying ‘everyone with AuDHD should get over themselves’ but nor is it as simple as saying; ‘everyone with AuDHD is disabled and must be treated completely differently’

Its honestly so interesting to read this. I'm a very organised person but sometimes do wonder what makes me put off doing just about everything - as you say if I'm not interested in it! I guess its what is normal procrastination and what is something else..I've never been diagnosed with anything.

I remember at uni being fascinated with someone in my work group who was always bringing in work she had done way ahead of time. Mine was always done the weekend or days before it was due - or yes the night before! I don't know why. I was a really good student.

I can also easily spend a whole morning doing stuff like washing, unloading the dishwasher or hanging up clothes when I should be getting dressed and leaving the house. And then I'm always late.

So it does help me to see how someone with PDA would find all this a 1000 times harder.

The question of ‘can’t’ v ‘won’t’ is a really difficult one. Personally, I think it is certainly not as simple as saying ‘everyone with AuDHD should get over themselves’ but nor is it as simple as saying; ‘everyone with AuDHD is disabled and must be treated completely differently’

I agree with this. I also think there's a danger in trying to split the world neatly into ND and NT. Someone may not have an ND diagnosis but may still have traits or struggle with certain things. Someone else may have a ND diagnosis but also just be a bit of a lazy or rude teenager at the same time.

However I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't try to be more understanding of ND or make accommodations. It's good that we understand these things better, but there still has to be a balance.