To have not lied to DS about trans actor in Last Christmas?

[DungOnATwig]

Watching above with DD17 (lesbian) and DS11 (straight) earlier today. One scene where a female presenting (long hair + fake eyelashes) but clearly biologically male actor plays a doctor (just Dr). DS says "that......lady sounds like a man".

I said yeah it is a man love. A man who identifies as a sex they are not.

DD paused then typed a wee bit more furiously than usual for 30 secs but then was ok. She knows tbf. She's lesbian and not pan.

It was so distilled down to me at the point of his very innocent (and tentative so as not to offend question) that I am not prepared to lie to my kid about the fucking fundamentals of life and tell them that person is a woman. Fuck that.

Merry Christmas 🍷

Also FUCK THAT FILM 😭😭😭😭😭

When I was pre-menopause and used a mooncup, I had no other way to wash it if necessary during the working day.
And changing in the women's loos before/after commuting by bike is pretty much the only option in some workplaces. I did this in one job where I shared an office, same for lunchtime yoga.

It's odd how clearly you want to minimise this redefinition of womanhood.

The reason why "we can always tell" has becone significant is that far too many people seem to believe that if a woman can be deceived by a man playacting womanhood then she has no right to complain it happened because "it doesn't affect you".

It is bizarre, but there you go. Misogyny and the assumption that women's self determination must be secondary to men's requirements of us run very deep in our society.

I helped a woman whose baby had had a poonami while she was breastfeeding him. She was trying to change the baby’s clothes while she herself had poo on her top. I helped her, then held her baby while she took her top off and washed it. Then she held her baby while I dried her top. She had no more clean muslins to cover up with. She stood in her bra until her shirt was dry.

ah you want a clap. Here you go 👏

I’ve changed when I’ve been breastfeeding and have a top covered in milk or when my baby has been sick all over me. It would have been impossible to do that in a cubicle with my baby.

Other times when I’ve been very relieved that there is a women’s toilet is in nightclubs. So many times that creepy men haven’t taken no for an answer and I’ve escaped to the toilets, got away from the man and been helped by other women.

It’s part of a bizarre red herring among the transphobes here that apparently those who support trans rights claim you can never tell.

Of course that’s nonsense because literally no one makes that claim.

The whole question of passing, discourse around passing privilege etc is widespread among trans people and to a lesser extent those who support them. No one is under any illusion that every trans person ‘passes’ and many do not seek to.

Of course ‘you can always tell’ is as ridiculous as ‘you can never tell’. But only the former is actually a claim routinely made.

Well obviously, because all a “trans woman” is required to do, as a male, is declare themselves to be a woman. They don’t have to present as female in any way. So someone would have to be pretty unhinged to claim that no one can “ever tell” and I’ve certainly never seen that claim made, so it seems to me that it’s your straw man that GC feminists claim it is.

This never happens.

It does happen. It happened to me.

Aww you want a clap.

Are you deliberately missing the point?

Must be, because I literally have no idea what you’re trying to say. Sorry about that.

Well I have, and I've done it, so I know it is real and happens.

There's a lot of biological men who identify as not men in the media and it's very obvious these people are not women.

There was a discussion on here a while ago about human beings noticing when things are off. Nothing to do with being transphobic or biogated just that on an unconscious level the brain picks up on things that are not quite right. Someone pointed out that this may be due to evolution and survival. So seeing a biological man presenting in a way that emulates the female sex can be quite jarring.

Just to add that there are some biological men who identify as not men who have had a lot of surgeries (Monroe Bergdorf) and they don't look like women they just look very bizarre.

Rebecca lived as a woman for two years, had bottom surgery (full sex change op) and had part of vocal chords removed. Old school transexual in other words. I would be more offended by Emma Thompson's appalling Croatian accent in that movie.

So you’re ok with non cis men being in female toilets. Grand. Are you also ok with cis men bing in female toilets? If not,why not?

Rebecca performed his interpretation of womanhood for two years, had emasculation surgery and an artificial cavity formed, that he has to regularly dilate to prevent it healing over, and had part of vocal chords removed. Old school transexual in other words. He remains male. He may have legally falsified documentation claiming that he is a woman. He remains a man according to the Equality Act. He has no absolute right to access women's spaces, women's services or women's positions.

It's odd how clearly you want to minimise this redefinition of womanhood.

The reason why "we can always tell" has becone significant is that far too many people seem to believe that if a woman can be deceived by a man playacting womanhood then she has no right to complain it happened because "it doesn't affect you".

It is bizarre, but there you go. Misogyny and the assumption that women's self determination must be secondary to men's requirements of us run very deep in our society.

You see, I don't have any problem with someone like that being in a female changing room. I think even fairly hardline Moslems would be OK with women being in a changing room with someone with a cavity instead of genitalia.

If I knew them personally I'd probably be quite happy to call them she if that's what they want. But I could never call them a woman, because they aren't, they're a man who physically resembles a woman.

And I absolutely don't agree with anyone who went through a male puberty competing either physically or mentally against women, for sports, awards, or women only jobs.

I understand the problem that some people have with feeling that they are being asked to lie by using "she". I suggested on another thread that "they" was a good compromise and got ritually slaughtered for it.

I don't know how that can be got round, because it isn't going to go away, and refusing to moderate an anti-trans position on the little issues is not helping the cause of women.

The simple answer is to coin new language to allow the men-who-don't-feel-like-men and the women-who-feel-they-have-something-significant-in-common-with-the-men-who-don-t-feel-like-men to name themselves and be recognised as a meaningful group without taking away the existing language that refers to women as a meaningful group based on our common physical sex.

The reason this will never be acceptabled to the men-who-don't-feel-like-men is because actually, this is not, despite all their language of I-just-want-to-be-myself, about their identity at all. It is about the forceable appropriation of our identity - of female identity, language and resources. They demand the right to redefine us and what is and is not significant to our lives and experiences so that they can define themselves as the same as us, and also demand that we may not have the symetrical right to define ourselves as different to them no matter how significant those differences may be to us, because they weigh their own judgement of us as more truthful than our own.

They need us to continue wommaning along as we always did because it it specifically that - the external target of our identities and our lives that they do not experience in their own right - that they want, and nothing to do with their own inner self knowledge and experiences at all.

And once you realise that, you realise that far from being "anti-trans position on the little issues", holding the line on female language and female existence being significant in its own right is the very heart of this. If we do not accept that, that female people do exist as separate from male, we cannot defend anything that is built upon it.

All the "compromises" ultimately boil down to some level of acceptance that some men, in some circumstances, are more like women than they are men. and no, I simply do not accept that, because to do so is to reduce womanhood and the diveristy of women into something lesser and stereotyped, into something that men project onto us not something that is innate within us.

The true compromises, the true half ways, are (1) new language, and (2) new intra-sex or mixed-sex social identities.

Anything that requires women define ourselves as less than we are, or rewrites our lives and experiences to downplay the impact our sex has, in order to accomodate trans identifying men is not a compromise, it's a subjection.

But that's just a man who has chopped his penis. Off.

It’s the transactivists that are obsessed with genitals, not the gender critical people. I don’t know whether a man has cut off his genitals and replaced them with a cavity. I don’t want to know. I don’t want to look. And it does not matter one iota, either.

A man looks like a man, sounds like a man, moves like a man, smells like a man. He can disguise himself but he remains a man. That’s the issue. Not what body mods he has had done.

A man who insists on colonising women’s spaces behaves like an entitled, domineering, aggressive man, no matter how disguised he is, no matter how soft-spoken he is.

But how do you know the male you’re allowing into the female spaces has a “cavity”? Are you relying on all males telling the truth?

I'm sorry but this is a nonsense. How would this work in practice? Men who have chopped their penises off can come into women's single sex spaces but men who haven't can't.

How do we know what men have chopped their penises off?

How do we stop men who haven't chopped their penises off but say they have out?

Do we allow men who have lost their penises through illness or accidents in? If not why?

I appreciate you're trying to find a middle ground but you either let men into women's spaces or you don't. If you let one man in you need to let them all in. And the only men who enter are predators as the good men know to stay out.

Why did I Google? I was curious, I spend most of my time when watching something looking through all the actors on IMDB 🤷‍♀️

People need to wake up to the fact that there is no 'moderate' position here. Either you let men into women's spaces or you don't. There's no in between.

What you've suggested here about letting men in who have had surgery is completely unworkable. How do you oversee that? I'm also not sure of the logic of it. Men who've had surgery are still men. Removing a penis doesn't make them a women.

Ive just watched this ARE YOU SURE IT’s a man? Definitely feel like it could be a woman and this post is extremely offensive.

Holy shit, it’s literally stated in his IMDb bio!!