To think there should be more positive narratives for men and boys

[MarieCelestial]

I would never argue that the highlighting of all of the bad and in some cases illegal things some men have done to women, individually and collectively, is anything other than a good thing. Metoo was a crucial social chance for change which was partly grasped.

I do however try to empathise with the position of, say an 18 year old male young person today, in a western country, They are bombarded with toxic nonsense from criminals like Andrew Tate. Almost all the things they hear through social media may be highly negative about men and masculinity.

Would it not be an idea for there to be more creativity about how male especially make heterosexual behaviour is presented, including, and not exclusively on TV.
Take the recent Eastenders storyline about a young boy committing violence and behaving egregiously to women. All well and good to present and examine this behaviour. In the same programme you have a deeply violent alcoholic character Phil Mitchell whose very violence seems to attract a string of attractive women to him. The protector syndrome perhaps? Either way, he is an awful person. Yes, ok, he is not exactly someone to model yourself on, but where oh where are the counterweights. Name me a male character in a film or tv show who has interacted (especially in an unconventional way) well. Not perfectly, but well?

You are not wrong.
It will be interesting to see the mess that the government makes of its new inititive in schools.
Whilst ignoring the ovewrwhelming influences at home and on the smart phones that they are gifted by their parents.

I agree. I have 3 ds (and 1dd) and I am very vocal about toxic male behaviour - it is easy to point out on tv shows. What is less easy is to point out are good decent non abusive men on tv - show creators/producers are missing a trick here.

Narratives are very difficult to control - Tony Soprano was never supposed to be a role model, for example, but many folk see him as exactly that.

I think it's more important that they have good men in their lives.

That's the bigger issue.

I agree. Finding them is the hard thing though.

If they have people in their lives telling them all men are shit then they're already well on their way to being fucked.

Or if they have people showing them that the way men in the public eye behave is not acceptable but you can find the odd one for them to look up to then your ds’s aren’t fucked and instead they grow up into great boys/men who are feminist and kind and caring and make you proud like my 3 are.

Well first and foremost the most important role models any child male or female can have is the environment they grow up in, how many dysfunctional families are there on here alone

How many children are born to parents who should not had children with each other in the first place, how many dysfunctional blended families do children habe to put up with because parents put themselves first?

It starts and ends with home

Quite difficult to arrange though.

I'm a single mum and work hard to show my ds the decent men in this world but I'm reduced to pointing to his sports coach, his boss, and the kind stranger who helped me carry our xmas tree home.
Finding any man in the public eye who could reasonably be called a male role model, is not easy.

If you are looking to soap operas for role models, you're going to get no where. Soaps thrive on stero types. They introduce a character that the audience needs to understand right away, so they use a stereotype.

If we're lucky, and the actor is ok, the character then develops into someone with more rounded characteristics.

David Platt on Corrie is a prime example. His stereotype was the confused young boy who'd had a terrible experience.

Over time, because I think he's a decent actor, he's morphed into a person that has shaded of grey, like most of us.

Look elsewhere. I know if I were bringing up a young male, I'd be pushing, for example, Kevin Seinfeld as a role model at the young male. He's rough, he's tough, and he is not afraid to show his loving emotions.

In real life, most men ARE good men and good examples. I don't believe my sons are only exposed to negative narrative, far from it.

Even in movies, social media etc, you see what you want to see. If you are looking at people, and not hateful like so many posters on MN, it's nowhere near as bad as they try to make it.

That counts for families going back decades and centuries. The only difference now is that it isn’t hidden so much like it was previously.

Can anyone name one man in the public eye that they would encourage their child to look up to? I’m sure there are some but at this time of night I can’t think of any.

seriously?

so many men use their fame and position to be positive and have a positive action in the world, actors, sportsmen, even some politician. People involved in charities, helping others, communities, bikers supporting kids.

It's very disingenuous to pretend it's hard to find!

Do they do it for publicity only? Do women? Does Dolly Parton only act for publicity for example? I honestly don't believe so.

Dan Barr, who jumped into and stopped the car when that maniac was mowing down Liverpool fans, is a great example. His heroism is very masculine, relied on his confidence in his physical strength, and his actions afterwards - just cleaned up his visible wounds and went for a pint with his brother.

If men want to be viewed differently then they should take the initiative and change the narrative.

We had to.

Exactly. Changing narratives about masculinity is ultimately men’s responsibility. Be the change you want to see.

This. I agree with you to an extent, how hard to be a young man facing the news that they are of the sex class which is overwhelmingly responsible for murder, sexual assault and child abuse. But it’s the truth. We live in a culture still pervaded by misogyny. It’s up to men to change that. God knows women have tried.

That is a good example - but he was one unknown man who did an amazing thing and most kids won’t know his name.

Name a well known sportsman or singer or actor who you are happy for your boys to look up to? I’m not saying there aren’t any - my brain isn’t working right now but I am sure there must be some?

So name all these amazing well known famous men and I will probably agree with you!

David Palmer, Jack Bauer, John Reese, Harold Finch, Malcolm Bright, Eric Carter, a lot of the men in Nikita (actually very powerful for the strong women and challenge to gender roles).
In real life, Ahmed al-Ahmed is the one who comes to mind right now, but I'm also grateful for all the men who helped when a tree fell on the road and all the medical staff, teachers, council workers and so many others, male and female, who help us every day, and I like to point out these real-life examples to both my kids.

I agree with this

I’m a single mum to 2 boys and their dad and granddad are, not great role models shall we say. My uncle is fabulous but he’s in his 80s and won’t be around forever. Ds1 has a good male swimming teacher, is getting a new male school teacher in the new year and goes to secondary in September where hopefully there will be more good male role models. I wish they would do hobbies and join clubs but they have no interest. I can see some of the less desirable traits of their dad in ds1 already

I like this. I will be honest and haven’t heard of all of them but I will look them up. Thank you.

Did you read a news site today? On one day we have more Andrew/Epstein files, we have two creeps in Manchester planning to attack a synagogue. Russell Brandt charged with more sex offences, and a man charged with 56 sexual crimes, drugging & raping his ex-wife. On just one day in England.....
....and you think I'm the problem 😳
The man who stopped the car driver in Liverpool is the one bright spot in a torrent of appalling male behaviour as far as I can see.

what does it have to do with what I said?

The actions of a few means you throw everybody in the same basket of insanity?

Do you say the same about abusive mothers? A convicted woman who abused or killed her own child, so ALL new mothers are appalling? Of course not, because that would be completely ridiculous.

and you think I'm the problem 😳
I think you focus on what you want to focus to fit your narrative, and for some reasons you ignore the majority of good men who are good people, or go above and beyond to help, protect and all the ones who risk their own lives for others.

If men were all creeps and dangerous you seem to want them to be for some reason, none of us would feel safe walking home alone at night or even during the day. I am surrounded by men who are normal, and the majority are very good men, just normal decent people, most men are more helpful and kind than women frankly.

I am fully aware that paedophiles do live among us and that there are creeps around, but it's such a tiny minority, they don't taint the entire male population.

Does any woman feel safe walking home at night?!
I doubt the minority is as tiny as we’d like.