To think there should be more positive narratives for men and boys

[MarieCelestial]

I would never argue that the highlighting of all of the bad and in some cases illegal things some men have done to women, individually and collectively, is anything other than a good thing. Metoo was a crucial social chance for change which was partly grasped.

I do however try to empathise with the position of, say an 18 year old male young person today, in a western country, They are bombarded with toxic nonsense from criminals like Andrew Tate. Almost all the things they hear through social media may be highly negative about men and masculinity.

Would it not be an idea for there to be more creativity about how male especially make heterosexual behaviour is presented, including, and not exclusively on TV.
Take the recent Eastenders storyline about a young boy committing violence and behaving egregiously to women. All well and good to present and examine this behaviour. In the same programme you have a deeply violent alcoholic character Phil Mitchell whose very violence seems to attract a string of attractive women to him. The protector syndrome perhaps? Either way, he is an awful person. Yes, ok, he is not exactly someone to model yourself on, but where oh where are the counterweights. Name me a male character in a film or tv show who has interacted (especially in an unconventional way) well. Not perfectly, but well?

There’s an Andy’s Man Club in my local town, started, marketed and facilitated by women.

I don’t think men are capable of starting anything without women to drive it and do the work.

This is one of the biggest challenges in teaching. Providing positive male role models for boys/young men from backgrounds where there have been none.

It's also one of the most rewarding parts of being a teacher, seeing the same lads turn things around after being shown that being young and male doesn't mean you are by default bad.

It is almost like changing the narrative and dismantling the patriarchy actually isnt in men’s best interest.

You could start by reading this

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/oct/03/of-boys-and-men-why-the-modern-male-is-struggling-by-richard-reeves-review-the-descent-of-man

and look out for anything he’s involved in - or the UK equivalent.

Unfortunately ime children learn from they see, not what they are told. If they see you being talked down to and treated badly by multiple men, that’s the message that is more likely to register. What you can do is - going forward - show that you will not accept being treated like crap by men.

i also count myself very lucky to be surrounded by strong women who, one way or the other, do not tolerate bullshit. that’s the one thing women can do. Stop rewarding men who are toxic in their behaviour - stop rewarding them with status, with children, with approval and support that they do not deserve.

It’s a hard cycle to break if it’s what you’ve grown up with though.

On a societal level we already know who is treating who badly.

Also the idea that men can be good influences and role models for girls to the point of active campaigns to get more men into childcare, but for some reason women just can't be good role models for boys or aren't acceptable role models for boys is absolutely cracked.

I'm missing the point obviously, but I suspect this is absolute bollocks:
" men are literally losing their grip. In 1985, writes Reeves, “the average man in his early 30s could squeeze your hand with about 30 pounds more force than a similarly aged woman. Today, their grip strength is about the same.”

There's a huge sex disparity in grip strength and AFAIK it's something that takes a long time to wane. It's not really significant in this type of discussion of course, apart from explaining how men are able to beat or strangle women to death when it pretty much never happens the other way around, but it makes me wonder about how well the book is researched.

That’s pretty much everyone on here to be fair.

Ach, you must know the old saw, which states that men are afraid that women will laugh at them, whereas women are afraid that men will kill them.
This extreme power imbalance indicates that if anyone needs to ‘fix their hearts ‘ in the words of David Lynch, it’s men. Not sarky women.
Sure, we all have behavioural records we might wish to scrub clean, to re-educate ourselves in some respects, but while men maintain such an unassailable primacy in sexual violence and assorted other abuses (not excluding very frequent murder), then I say they have to deal with these defects themselves, among the rank and file.

If contemporary feminism hadn't been infiltrated and distorted by bad faith elements from the mid-‘80s, we might be in a different game altogether.
The movement, prior to this, was always going to improve men’s lives as well as our own, by weakening the foundations of dramatically divergent gender rôles, but the past forty years have instead reinforced antiquated expectations and limitations in this regard, and certainly men have been channelled along a cartoonish and dangerous view of manhood.

😂

This in a nutshell.

I had an interesting conversation with my OH about how men feel emasculated by our success - that we can be mothers, caregivers, bosses, main earners etc and so on. He feels (I think) that men have slightly lost their purpose and young boys growing up without a direction. Easier to fall into online misogyny (women are now competition everywhere) and violence.

I said that might be true but only you and all of "man"kind can sort it out yourselves, it's not for us to rescue you. And putting us back in our place is not a workable solution and most men couldn't survive in this economy supporting a family themselves.

Real life role models are key, but I've also noticed that lots of popular children's TV shows, books and films are relentlessly female-led (Frozen, Moana, Encanto etc). Where are the leading men and boys?

Riz Ahmed- not necessarily in the characters he plays always. But afaik he doesn’t do kissing scenes etc in movies (he’s married), raps, Oscar winning actor, activist, went to oxford I think?
the boyz- the tv show the male leads laugh a lot about weird male stereotypes, treat women well and save the world.
Will Ferrell and Paul judd seem like good guys.

To be totally honest I don’t think we can solve the problem of male behaviour until we sort out porn- the prevalence and violence of it. I genuinely believe it has altered the brains of men 18-50 over the last 15 years

I agree with you that there is a dearth of good male role models on TV, and in fact a lot of harmful, negative portrayals of men. The one that springs to mind is that 'Adolescence' series which I admit I didn't watch but the trailer was enough to turn me off. I have two sons, one who is very gentle and easy going, but my younger one who is a typical boy with lots of energy and curiousity. I've been actively looking for good male role models in society so he can channel his energy and drive in a productive way.

My husband is a great role model, and other family members, sports coaches but the portrayal of men in the media leaves a lot to be desired.

I was recently watching a movie called 'October Sky', with a young Jake Gynnenhall in the main role. I'd never seen it before. It was made in 1999 and it struck me how the positive male qualities were really celebrated in this film and that you don't see that often anymore. Male qualities such as curiousity, inventiveness, resilience, tenacity, fearlessness, dogged pursuit of a goal, team work, discovery, playfulness, physical and emotional strength.

This x1000

I agree. I think men are scared of doing anything now. It must be hard to try and date or flirt with someone in a natural way if you're constantly worried about being called out on it for instance.
Some women are so quick to jump on innocent behaviour and act like the victim.

I would always be cautious myself, as a female, not to put myself in a dangerous position but I know that most men are perfectly lovely and I don't tar them all with the same brush.

I think both men and women need to cop on and realise that if we want the human race to continue we need to get on the same page, and both need to step up in terms of how we treat each other. Men are more physically violent towards women, but women can destroy men ( and other women of course) by destroying their reputations, careers, family. There is toxic behaviour on both sides.

Male qualities such as curiousity, inventiveness, resilience, tenacity, fearlessness, dogged pursuit of a goal, team work, discovery, playfulness, physical and emotional strength.

These are not male qualities. They're just good human qualities which woman can aspire to and possess as well.

Maybe the problem isn't "a lack of good male role models". Maybe it's thinking in terms of "male" role models and "female" role models full stop. Boys and girls can both look at men and women who possess strong qualities and aspire to be like them - gender is the least important aspect of those qualities.

Of course they can. Maybe it was badly worded but I meant that these qualities were celebrated in the male characters of that film.

I'd hope that decent men would watch story lines depicting harmful male behaviour and empathise with the victims, rather than complain the male characters didn't reflect them, or that they were not being offered positive role models. Soaps do not portray their female characters very positively either. With every stereotype of 'bad' woman used for dramatic purposes.
If watching them with boys and girls of an impressionable age, the take away would be that some people behave in these harmful ways, that these are the consequences, so avoid this behaviour.
Far more harmful imo is when hyper and toxic masculinity is portrayed as desirable and rewarding, and violence is portrayed as heroism.

I think it's not just men and the narrative of toxic masculinity. Young women also have lots of conflicting viewpoints and toxic narratives thrown at them.

Its not though. The men who control the narrative (who are they by they way?)
Are a minuscule percentage of the population.
Im pretty sure there is no Whats app group with all the men in the world on where they decide on the global male narrative.

Also remember, MN is an echo chamber.

Men control the narrative of how men are presented.

Women have no part in it.

What makes those qualities “male”?

I answered this to another poster.
' Maybe it was badly worded but I meant that these qualities were celebrated in the male characters of that film'

I think men are less concerned with being seen as 'nice' or towing the politically correct line. I also don't believe that somebody preaching 'woke' values is automatically a decent person - often they just want to use it to police and shame other people. In many ways they're similar to the men who know how to appear upstanding.

There's also the fact that powerful and successful men are seen as more desirable and the reality is that it's often easier to attain these attributes by being somewhat cutthroat/self serving.

If you search on Google using phrases like 'hero saves' and read the various news stories it's mostly men that seem to be the innocent bystanders that run into a burning building/rescue people from drowning etc. Not saying that as a slight against women BTW, I'd imagine it's partly evolutionary and down to things like testosterone.