To think there should be more positive narratives for men and boys

[MarieCelestial]

I would never argue that the highlighting of all of the bad and in some cases illegal things some men have done to women, individually and collectively, is anything other than a good thing. Metoo was a crucial social chance for change which was partly grasped.

I do however try to empathise with the position of, say an 18 year old male young person today, in a western country, They are bombarded with toxic nonsense from criminals like Andrew Tate. Almost all the things they hear through social media may be highly negative about men and masculinity.

Would it not be an idea for there to be more creativity about how male especially make heterosexual behaviour is presented, including, and not exclusively on TV.
Take the recent Eastenders storyline about a young boy committing violence and behaving egregiously to women. All well and good to present and examine this behaviour. In the same programme you have a deeply violent alcoholic character Phil Mitchell whose very violence seems to attract a string of attractive women to him. The protector syndrome perhaps? Either way, he is an awful person. Yes, ok, he is not exactly someone to model yourself on, but where oh where are the counterweights. Name me a male character in a film or tv show who has interacted (especially in an unconventional way) well. Not perfectly, but well?

Why do you think that is?

…

There are plenty of positive male role models and plenty of positive narratives. They're just not interested in them. There are men trying to use social media as a force for good and they are just relentlessly mocked by other men and that negativity is just more appealing for some reason. Its not lack of positive narratives that it's the problem.

Yes that's what I meant earlier with my comment about the Gillette ad.
Men are very intolerant of less "manly" men if that makes sense.

Yes I think women do it to but this thread isn't about women.
People don't make good choices in a partner for many reasons

I don't think women treating men well is going to make any difference to how men behave.
Men whose mothers have done everything for them, in the mistaken idea that they are being kind and showing their love for them, turn out to be self absorbed twats in my experience.
TicTok uses algorithms doesn't it? So what you're seeing is personal to you because of what you've watched? I doubt men are seeing this.
How do you think women should treat men exactly?

I would say that depends on the shows you are drawn to watch. I dint watch british soaps as i find them screechy and the examples of the worst people. If you watch a few soaps then yes that would be what you are exposing yourself to.

Modern Family has great examples of decent men.
marshall in HIMYN. And his dad.
Neighbours has decent men.
Even TOWIE has decent men. They talk and call each other out.
Man on the Inside. Only murders in the building. Chesapeake shore.

many, many tv programmes contain decent men. But if you watch soaps, then Conflict is the essence of drama, so you get conflict to create the drama.

Quite often how women treat men is a direct response to how they themselves have been treated by men.

Its not the same in reverse.

I don't know what you mean

I agree with you. Positive masculinity is mocked as "woke". Meanwhile, a known, serial sex offender is POTUS.

Misogyny, abuse and VAWG are not only acceptable nowadays, they're admired, promoted and profitable!

Dickens has some good male characters, as do some rom coms and old christmas movies such as its a wondeful life

I thought Ginge on I'm a celebrity was a really positive male role model for my son. I started watching not knowing who he was and ended up absolutely loving him. Raised by a single mum too, she's done an amazing job.

The problem with the gillette ad was that it showed good men as a minority and not the majority.

If anyone has ever been to a picnic and seen two boys fighting they would know that both men and women step foward to stop it.

Its not just abour promoting "positive masulinity" its showing that it is the norm and not the exception.

Why is creating a good narrative for men something we women should have the initiative of doing? Where are those hordes of good men getting together to help young boys have good role models?

So how to you know the men who treat women badly weren't treated badly by woman in the first place?

i agree. The toxic masculinity narrative and problematising boys and young men has been a huge mistake that has unsurprisingly helped to make Andrew Tate et Al seem appealing. For the first time in my life I understand the appeal of the anti-feminist movement.

Look at all the gender disappointment threads on here. It’s ALWAYS people having sons.

Saw this recently and it says it all.

It starts with a boy’s father. They are the primary role model. How many fathers are excellent role models? Not many.
How many fathers are not in the slightest bit misogynistic? Not many.
Ask a man to name sports people, writers. Poets, actors, comedians, politicians, musicians, singers, songwriters, scientists, etc etc and see how many give female names. That is a good indicator as to if a man is a misogynist.
See how many men take care of their children and partners of if they leave it to the female. See how many visit their elderly parents and deal with issues such as looking after them when they can no longer care for themselves, or if they leave it to their female relatives.
See how many men put their children first. Or do they put their sex life first. His many men keep breeding with random women then abandon children? Far too many,
This thread is about negative role models for boys so it’s itrelevant anyone replying about the behaviour of women,
As for naming positive male role models the only 2 I can think of are Andy Murray and Keane Reeves, both of whom I believe were raised by single mothers. In fact Andy’s mum is a very visible , positive influence whereas I have no idea who his father is.
I can’t think of a single other famous male I can honestly say is a great role model. In all honesty, I’m no longer surprised when a man turns out to be a cunt.
We are constantly hearing of males committing offences, constantly.

IME men react to stories of vile behaviour (carried out by men) and the inevitable calling out by women, by doubling down of more of the same.

I think I have a jaded view of men because for the most part the men in my life (family, work colleagues, friends) tend to be vaguely or overtly misogynistic, and those I’ve come across who push themselves as feminists and allies to women often do this to gain access to vulnerable women with disturbing regularity.

There are so few decent male role models. There seems to be a big gap between the Andrew Tate type and the feminist type whose videos attract women praising them or men attacking them and calling them out for pandering to women. Whatever is out there seems to push men more towards misogyny, and I suspect the new government initiative to combat misogyny will make things much worse.

Look at the quote history, it explains it.

Women are conditioned from a very young age to make way for men, to accept poor behaviour as normal.
How many of us here have men in our lives who are congratulated for being the bare minimum?
How many of us now see posts by men complaining about their wives who have experienced enough to read between the lines and manage, over the course of the thread, to clarify that the OP is actually just another crappy man who thinks his meagre efforts are keeping the whole family afloat?

Women are reacting to behaviour they see all the time, and with SM and particularly TikTok it’s never been easier to share this information. And what do men do? They don’t do better, pull their weight and become the men that women want. No, they fight back and blame women for their own loneliness. More and more young women are choosing childfree single lives instead of settling for a shit man, but too many men are too stupid to react to that in a constructive way.

The rubbish tip troop of baboons could be an important lesson to us all 😏

Mum of two boys here, which had been revelation to me as I grew up in a female heavy household. I think the single most important thing to do is surround them with good men, and for them to see men being polite, considerate, talking and communicating and being part of a family etc on a daily basis. There was a point with both of them probably around 12-14yrs where they stopped focusing on me, and turned towards their dad / grandads / uncles / dads of friends. They wanted to learn how to be men, and I’m so glad and grateful that they are surrounded by good men (and strong women who generally don’t take any shit in their relationships. That balance is really important.)

i also think it’s important to recognise that makes and females are different, and they have different motivations and drives. Men are - at a population level - more sexually driven, more competitive, more prone to violence and more likely to take risks. That is a feature of ‘maleness’, it’s what testosterone does, it has in part driven humanity forward over millennia. This doesn’t mean that individual men should be excused from treating other people with respect and consideration. But we need to recognise that boys and girls, men and women are different biologically and that this has consequences. I think society is at a funny place: men still run the world but the education system and many other places have become feminised, places where boys natural impulses are treated as ‘toxic’ rather than channelled into positive routes. I would love to see more male teachers in secondary schools - men that can meet teenage boys on their own turf, so to speak.

Richard Reeves and Scott Galloway are excellent on this subject, with their Lost Boys series / podcasts..

I have two late teen boys and they look for role models that speak to their thier testosterone i guess.

They dont watch much tv but sat and watched Chris Hoy, his diagnosis and his activities to raise awareness money and he was respectful about his wife.

I would be very happy to amplify the campaigns and activities started by men to do so. Can you point me at the list they've started and I will add my name and support?

Or is it expected that women do this for them?

Don’t your friends have husbands or partners or other male children who are nice normal people?

or the dads and brothers of their own friends?

or any of your colleagues you’ve worked with over the years who you’ve stayed friends with?

im not particularly well connected but i could reel off 20 or 30 really nice men in my circle and would struggle to point to a single arsehole.

😂just like the whatsboutery on international women’s day.