DD hasn’t changed one bit

[Heriam]

DDs dad has always been a bully. They were estranged for 10 years. He’s been back 6 months and he already feels comfortable snapping at her and being abrasive.

The other day, she got in trouble for having him on loudspeaker whilst she did her hair. He lectured her and said don’t do it just ring me tomorrow. She responded with OK fine.

2 minutes later he rang back twice. Then text saying:

Don’t you ever speak to me me like that again. I don’t know who you think you are.

3 minutes later he followed up with:

And don’t ring me again unless it’s to apologise.

She responded with:

I feel so nervous to speak to you because you get angry so quickly 😭😭😭😭😭 I just wish we could have nice conversations as I get anxious 😭😭😭

He’s started true to his ultimatum and hasn’t spoken to her since.

She is now querying whether she should say sorry just incase he doesn’t speak to her again. My position is, HELL NO.

When we were together, he was a violent bully. He did exactly the same thing to me. Teach me how to comply using the silent treatment.

Should she say sorry? Or risk estrangement again by holding firm?

This

I also feel that there are risks associated with removing a man from your child’s life. For 10 years, after he made some terrible choices, I kept her away from him. She eventually became really curious about him and very sad that she didn’t know who he was. To be honest, I’m glad that they’ve spent this time getting to know eachother and he has shown his arse. I’m glad that she made the decision herself.

It’s very difficult because there are arguments for stepping in and arguments for allowing autonomy on the part of the children. I see both sides.

The fact that you are even asking us if she should apologise is really troubling. Your daughter is only 12, you need to protect her and keep her away from this man. It shouldn't be up to her to put up these boundaries, it should have been you. She is learning that it's ok for ment to be like this and she is learning it from you. You sound very passive about the situation. You also met another abuser and brought him into her life. I suggest you don't date again until she is a grown up. Do the freedom programme with her, get counselling together, and own up to your own mistakes that have led to this situation. This is an awful situation for a 12 year old to be in.

If he has gone no contact with her it's probably for the best. Just make sure she knows that it's him that is 100% at fault here.
If he pops up again, encourage her to stop contact with him. I think at 10 she is old enough to have some say and she may well not want to do that.
So if that is the case, help her to see that it is his problem not her. Support her to be assertive when dealing with him. And make it clear to her that she can stop contact with him whenever she wants to.

I've got to be honest, OP, there are some massive red flags hiding in amongst what you've posted.

You've said that you've brought multiple abusive men into your daughter's life. This will have impacted her development.

You've implied that your 12yo is mature for her age (this isn't the compliment people think it is, it's a sign that a child has been forced to grow up too quickly and it's what early stage people pleasing looks like, which is really about anxiety and feeling responsible for the feelings of the adults around you)

You've said the two of you are 'very close.' Again, this can be an indicator of enmeshment/parentification, particularly given the history of abusive men.

It is not the job of a 12yo to set boundaries with an abusive parent, or protect themselves from that parent. It is your job to step in and tell him he cannot speak to her that way. You need to get in the middle of this and stand up for your child. You've said you did it before. It's time to do it again. This is your responsibility as her mother. She is not old enough to manage this situation herself.

Why did that post upset you so much, OP? Most of what's been said isn't unreasonable.

I agree with the others who have suggested counselling. It means that she can have someone neutral to talk to about it which would make it easier for you as well.

What do you mean by ‘But’? But what?

If she can set such firm boundaries with her own dad at 12 then she has a much higher chance of successfully steering clear of scummy people when she dates @Heriam you should be so proud of her, and I really hope it carries through to her adult life but please don’t rely on her being able to do this. It rarely works out that way. I cut my father off when I was about 12. I still made some terrible, terrible decisions that had huge and life altering consequences in my life. I have several friends who did the same thing, all with the same results.

I don’t know whether it’s because we had no idea what a healthy relationship looked like, or because aggression, violence, manipulation and abandonment felt familiar and therefore comforting, whether we were trying to re-write history or whether we chose these men because we all had commitment issues because all we knew of men were that they caused problems and pain (possibly a combination of all of them) but having a parent like this can alter your ability to make healthy decisions, even if you’ve cut that parent off. And I didn’t even realise what I was doing, or why. It literally only clicked for me when someone pointed out that if I kept picking the same sort of men, then I would keep having the same sort of problems.

After a lot of hard work, I’m now married to a man who could not be more different from my father if he tried. He is a good man and I love him madly. But if counselling had been a thing when I was a child, My God, my life would have been so much easier.

My daughter has been through this exact same thing with her father.

He is angry, abusive and bitter. We split up when she was 1 year old, and I continued to let her see him because my family pressured me to, against my better judgement.

I could not count the number of times she came home crying. I would never make her see him, sometimes she didnt want to, but I always told her it was her choice.

Ultimately, she decided in her late teens to cut him off completely, but this was after years of not seeing him for months on end, trying again in the hopes that he would be different, and then realising he wasnt. The last time she saw him, he started yelling at her before she'd even left our house. And that was the end.

People told me that a child needs to decide for themselves, but if I had my time again, I would have stopped him from seeing her long ago. Ultimately, all being around a father like that does is batter a child's self confidence, and make them feel like they're constantly in the wrong. It makes them feel worthless.

Tell him to fuck off. Your daughter will thank you in the end.

Your dd sounds brilliant, you have clearly done a great job.

@CactusSammy

People told me that a child needs to decide for themselves, but if I had my time again, I would have stopped him from seeing her long ago. Ultimately, all being around a father like that does is batter a child's self confidence, and make them feel like they're constantly in the wrong. It makes them feel worthless I don’t think you should regret your decision. These men damage their children either way. She’d have felt just as worthless thinking that she wasn’t good enough for him to stick around or want to have any kind of relationship with her. I don’t think there is anything you could have done that would have prevented the damage he caused.

@WilfredsPies Thank you 😊

He’s an abusive bully. Encourage your daughter to cut him out of her life. The last thing she needs is a father like that. Don’t allow him to bully her please.

I hardly ever say this, but she would absolutely be better off without him.

She's only 12 and her response to him by text sounds more mature and reasonable than anything he's said to her. Poor girl - I really feel for her (and for you). He's a horrible, domineering bully and she's clearly scared of him.

Cut him off. Why have such a horrible person in your life. He'll do her more harm than good and obviously he has a mental illness or condition or something.

OP I could write the exact same thread.
My DDs dad (when he’s involved) is a controlling bully.

He’s currently not speaking to her because he asked what she wanted for Xmas (first time ever he’s thought about getting a gift) and she responded with something that is about £30.
He had a go at her and told her that she shouldn’t just ask like that and she needs to create a presentation with reasons why she wants this gift and why it sill be useful.
She spent hours on this bloody PowerPoint presentation and sent it to him - I am bias but it was really good.
He ripped it to shreds and couldn’t find 1 good thing to say about it and so she’s not getting anything.
She told him that was unfair and that most parents buy their kids a Xmas present and he had a go at her for speaking back to him and hasn’t spoken to her in 2 months.

Its difficult because you don’t want to talk negatively about their parent and influence their opinion based on your experience - some people are awful partners but good parents.

But you also want to teach them that certain behaviour is unacceptable and it does not matter if that person is related to you or you’re in a relationship with them.

I probably should have been a bit more vocal from a younger age but wanted her to know her dad.
Now I don’t slag him off but as she’s gotten older I will tell her his behaviour is not appropriate and I have spoken to her about control and to not give in as that’s exactly what they want.

I always talk about how lucky he is to have such an amazing DD and that she is the prize that he should be making an effort to see and impress and try and get her in his life.
I will also say sorry you have such a shit dad (mines older), so I am validating that he is shit and it’s ok for her to be upset.

Change her phone number and make sure he can't contact her.

Teach your daughter how to instill boundaries and lead by example.

For what it's worth I hate having conversations with someone who is doing something else because it's rude so I always end the call quickly with 'you're busy, call me when you're free'.

Please alert her school safeguarding team so that they can support her. Ask that they do a programme with her specifically around healthy relationships and continue to offer her support as she goes through this. There is no freedom programme for children but school safeguarding teams can and should support children like her in these situations.

This is abuse though. He’s abusing your dd - you need to get tough here, as does the OP.

What other posters are saying (I’m not sure it is sinking in?) is that children/teenagers often don’t have the emotional or verbal capacity to deal with this kind of behaviour. They are brought up being told they have to listen to and respect their parents/grown ups. But that isn’t true if the grown up is a vile piece of shit who treats them badly.

Your ex has basically deliberately set your dd up there to fail - he has no intention of buying her a present. He enjoys manipulating and upsetting her. If my ex did that to my DD he would never see her again - it’s evil. Can’t you see that?? Get these shitty men out of your dd’s lives for the love of God!

Your dd’s may not feel they have the authority or power to tell their sperm donor’s to get lost for good. I’d be changing their phone numbers and letting their dads take me to court if necessary (they won’t though - these pathetic specimens never do)

Show them that YOU will not tolerate them being treated like this and stop being so passive. This is one thing you should be getting very, very tough about. Stop allowing these losers to cause damage to your children.

Im sorry but I think you need some straight talking.

Don't say sorry. He sounds like a coercive abuser and your DD is better off with no contact with him whatsoever.

No don’t be sorry as I appreciate your honesty.

Its very difficult because I would never want to stop a relationship.
It is not up to me to dictate who she can and can’t speak to - else I become the controlling one.

I think too many mothers stop or make it difficult for the dads to see the kids because they put their own feelings above the kids and it’s the kids who ultimately suffer and feel unloved.

So it’s about trying to find the right balance which I admit I found very difficult and have definitely made mistakes in the past as I have tried too hard for him to be involved in her life (luckily he never had much interest).

Fortunately he does not see her in person but she wouldn’t want to see him now anyway.

And she has gotten to an age where I will be honest about controlling behaviour and she knows exactly what he’s like and he can’t manipulate her anymore but i wish I spoke more negatively about him when she was younger and if i was OP I would be more honest and encourage a break from him.

But I also think there’s a balance between protecting your child and also letting them learn their own boundaries and putting them in place.
Obviously it depends on the age and emotional maturity of the child but me taking over and blocking his number from her is going to be less effective than her taking control and ignoring him.

Yes I do understand where you’re coming from Eyeshadow

however this:
Now I don’t slag him off but as she’s gotten older I will tell her his behaviour is not appropriate and I have spoken to her about control and to not give in as that’s exactly what they want.

I personally think you’re being too passive - I’d be telling her in straight terms exactly what I thought of his behaviour and how abusive it is. Get angry! Then let her make her own informed decision. Have you asked her exactly why she wants him in her life? What she gets from him (I can’t imagine it’s anything good)? Can she answer that?

Ripping up her spreadsheet - I mean, he’s just a piece of shit. Who does that to a child? I’d just want him out of her life immediately before he can do any more damage.

I really hope she finds the strength to tell him to get lost for good.

I do really appreciate your advice and other posters advice for both me and OP, thank you.
Perhaps I need to reevaluate what I’m teaching her.

This is why I love MN! 💐