Here is the transcript for those like me who can't be arsed to sit & watch YouTube for 40+ minutes.
Episode 40: The Salt Path, Lies and Fantasy?
This Much is True Crime
Transcript
0:00
Uh hello again and welcome to the last episode of this year of this much is
0:06
true crime with me Martin Friselle and my colleague and friend emeritus professor of criminology David Wilson.
0:13
Thank you. I got slightly worried when you were introducing there. I thought the last ever episode of this much is
0:18
true. It's 20 year 25 2025. Uh we've been going since what the end of April,
0:24
beginning of May, and we've managed to do something every week, which is great considering we're busy people. Uh life
0:30
has been busy, but this year has been particularly good for crime, I think. Maybe not good for the victims of it,
0:36
obviously not, but it's been a good year for crime. And I thought uh for uh this last one of the year rather than um
0:44
roundup of the year type thing which I've always hated when it's on telly. I think if we uh we go through the main
0:51
ones that people have been interested in uh watching and listening in their tens of thousands honestly. Um what are the
0:58
updates on those because they've all moved on a bit. So I thought we'd do that if that's all right with you. Yes. Why why have you always been
1:04
against Roundup? So, what was it that turned I just find I just think it's lazy and easy and between Christmas and New
1:10
Year's where they all come uh review of the year kind of stuff. It's stuff you know and if there's anything in
1:16
particular I wanted to remind myself of I'd have watched it many many times on YouTube or clips wherever it is. I just
1:22
think it's quite a lazy easy filler in the television world which is what we did. Um so this is different because
1:29
this is genuinely taking it forward and almost where are they now? Okay. So,
1:34
these are some of the stories that we've covered since April, but they're still got things going on.
1:40
Absolutely. And the most popular one that we did this year that resonated
1:45
most with people um is The Salt Puff. Yeah. Uh I don't want to go through the whole
1:51
kind of um story behind it because I think we all accept we know what it is. It's a big book. uh it was meant to be
1:57
uh a true story and then all of a sudden it falls apart bit by bit as one
2:02
journalist said uh a strand was pulled and the whole thing starts to fall down.
2:08
Now, the update on this is is that um Rainor Win and Moth, whose real names
2:15
are Tim and Sally Walker, y have gone back onto social media now,
2:20
probably forced back onto social media since the alleged scandal first broke
2:26
during the summer because there has been a new documentary with um some new
2:31
evidence, I suppose, that's come out uh literally in the past few days from the
2:36
Observer and Tortoise media. A very well-made documentary, I have to say, which goes back through the story of the
2:42
salt path and how uh Rain Orwin, Sally Walker, uh her her explanation of being
2:50
in financial difficulty is not what really happened and there are a lot of people who've lost money. Um we also
2:58
have of course Moth's illness. Yeah. Which is a terminal brain disease.
3:05
And there are people who took hope and heart from the book that it could
3:10
somehow be reversed or certainly be lessened by just walking in the fresh
3:16
air. And clearly that's upset a lot of people because the the allegations are
3:21
that's not the case. And then what has come out this particularly new in the documentary is family members
3:29
of this couple have come forward now and some didn't want to be on camera. Uh one
3:36
did who was in tears almost to the degree of we've been waiting for you to call to ask us to come and talk about
3:43
this moth they said was a fantasist. Uh the word liar was even used and the
3:50
astonishing allegation that Rainorwin Sully Walker wrote a letter admitting
3:56
that she'd taken money from her mother and from her in-laws. Yeah. So this is a sky documentary
4:03
presented by the observer journalist who first broke the story. Um and we covered
4:10
this um for all kinds of reasons, didn't we? But in particular, we covered this
4:16
because of I think initially that we were interested in that
4:22
zeitgeist issue about what is the truth in true crime. What is what is actually
4:30
happened here and we always say that good true crime holds a window up to
4:35
society and allows us to say why did this crime happen? What can we do to make those things better? And so we
4:43
covered it because of that and clearly um the allegations that seem to me to be
4:49
been very well proven by the observer and in this documentary that this is not
4:55
the truth. This might be Rainor and Mo's truth. But it is not the truth. It is a
5:03
version of the truth despite the fact that the book was sold on the basis of
5:09
it being unflinching. an unflinching honest account,
5:14
almost redemption story. And we and we also covered it because and I think perhaps the reason why it had such an
5:20
impact is because you know both of us, you especially are close to
5:26
the story of people having neurological issues and how do you manage those neurological issues? And as you say,
5:33
this book, because it was supposedly unflinchingly true, was kind of implying
5:39
that exercise, walking the salt path, was a way of reversing these underlying
5:45
neurological health issues. Now, what seemed to emerge for me from the
5:50
documentary were these new allegations about family members saying effectively
5:56
the word liar was used. They're liars. These people are liars. Now the bit that
6:03
slightly worries me about this Martin is this that as a result of us talking about it
6:11
as a result of the observer talking about it well the salt path as a book
6:18
went back into the best sellers list. You know, people don't seem to have
6:24
stopped buying the book because what's being said in the book is being undermined by reality, by the truth.
6:32
People are still going out and buying a copy of what has been written and presented as the truth when it's clearly
6:38
not. That must surely annoy you, too. Well, I mean, I went back into the bestsellers at the same time as my wife
6:45
Fiona had her book out uh and uh her book got to number one in the Sunday Times bestsellers list.
6:51
kept the salt path going anywhere back up that high, but they did sell more.
6:56
And I can see why. It's a good story. I mean, never mind the scandal. It's a good story in itself. I mean, even just
7:03
that would have been a good story without saying it's a true story in in in my view. And what about the film?
7:10
Because remember, a lot of the book got pushed because of Jillian Anderson, Jason Issacs playing the parts of Moth
7:17
and Raina. And as far as I understand, um, the film is still being released in
7:25
different areas of the world. It did very well in the UK. It's the third most successful film in Britain
7:31
this year. It was done on a very low budget. I know it sounds a lot of money, $10 million or a bit less. That sounds a
7:38
lot, but for a movie, that's not a lot of money. And it's brought in at the box office $17.5
7:44
million. So, it's done incredibly well for that. There was even talk that um
7:50
the the main actors Jason Isaacs and Julian Anderson may well be nominated for BAFTAs, possibly even Oscars. Now
7:58
that may still happen because that all happens, the awards season happens in the coming few months into the new year,
8:04
but just imagine some of the social uh chatter around that if that does happen.
8:10
Uh, so it's it the film was going to be released in America and that hasn't
8:16
happened as such. What what it has done though is it's just gone this week again
8:21
updating people as we're talking. It is now on Amazon Prime. You can get it. You
8:26
don't have to pay extra on Amazon. It's part of your subscription and it's in the top 10, I just checked, uh, films as
8:34
we speak at the moment. So, it'll be a big Christmas film for people as well. And you know what? Again, just looking
8:41
at the documentary that came out. They did vox pops of people in the street. Some people are prepared to sort of put
8:47
aside the fact that there's a bending of the truth. It's a nice story and it's a
8:53
memoir and not everything in a memoir has to be uh the gospel honest truth.
8:59
And how do you feel about that? Do you feel do you feel you could how would you feel if u Jillian Anderson Jason Issacs
9:08
were nominated for a BAFTA were nominated for an Oscar? Do you feel that
9:13
the role that they play in the movie in promoting the movie in promoting the
9:19
book undermines is undermined by the fact that we've discovered all the
9:24
reality of what's behind it. But they will say and Penguin says and the film company will say to the at the time of
9:31
them commissioning these things they didn't know of these allegations or these stories of the scandal. So they
9:36
did it all in good faith and uh dead earnest about it. And I believe that's what the actors did too. I haven't seen
9:42
the film. I don't want to watch it now because of this because I just can't believe it. But I would imagine that
9:48
they're great as they were and certainly the reviews again before the scandal broke was that they did, you know, a
9:54
great job of acting. Yeah, why not? They they they deserve awards for acting as such. I just can't help but think though
10:02
it will be cause such a stink uh and more bad publicity that they probably don't need. Uh who knows because the
10:09
judges of BAFTA and Oscars won't necessarily take that into account. They'll just look at you know was it a
10:15
good piece of work by these actors and actresses. The other thing that comes uh that we spoke about at the time when we
10:21
first did this story, by the way, it was you that I think that coined the phrase a pinch of soul path. Um the other thing
10:29
that comes out in relation to this both at the time and looking forward is the
10:35
publishing industry, isn't it? You know, you mentioned Penguin there, but from what I understand by watching the
10:42
documentary, there was really no factchecking at all, was there?
10:47
They're just taking her word for it. Rainor or Sally Walker's word for it. No, as you know, my wife um did a book
10:54
this year. Um she's a journalist. I'm a journalist. We were helped with Allison Phillips who former editor of the Daily
11:01
Mirror, who's a great journalist as well. Three journalists on our book. Everything in our book, believe me, is
11:07
absolutely honest and truthful and the real McCoy, but there was no checking as
11:12
such. And generally, that's the the industry now, I think, is they're show so short staffed. There's such a rush to
11:18
just get something into print. Uh, and it's turf wars everywhere that I think they haven't got the time or they
11:24
haven't got the staff to go and do a deep dive into whether these things are true or not. And so basically, if
11:31
someone wants to uh sue anyone uh or or take anybody to court, they'd be taking
11:37
Rainor Win aka Sally Walker to court and not Penguin. Having said that, now the
11:43
documentary that's just come out, um the family members, one family member in
11:49
particular says that they contacted Penguin Oh. when they heard about this twice and
11:55
didn't hear back. and Penguin to this day still say that no issues have been raised with them about this.
12:02
And of course they would prefer that I'm presuming because won't it be in
12:07
Penguin's ongoing financial interest to maintain u as much as possible a sense
12:15
in which the book is credible at the very least. It's credible. It's a it's an interesting read. It's in their
12:23
interest to do so. I I I'm fascinated by the fact that Raina Win has gone back on
12:29
social media. What is she saying on social media? Well, she's saying this letter, this kind of D this this
12:35
bombshell letter that she's alleged to have written to her family uh to her sister, I think it was saying, you know,
12:41
I took mom's money uh and I've taken in-laws money as well. Please don't tell
12:46
the police because I'll go to jail if you do. She denies that. So, someone's
12:52
not telling the truth. would the family and bear in mind the documentary had was it four or five family members all
12:58
together singing off the same hymn sheet believing it there's her versus them. So, she's gone back on social media
13:04
saying that um this is driving a wedge through her family. Uh we should be keeping things private and you can
13:10
always still come to me. Of course, she doubles down and says it's still an honest account this whole salt path of
13:17
the journey that Mo was absolutely uh diagnosed with this uh brain disease and
13:25
uh still just very upset. But basically, you know, she's been receiving thousands
13:31
of messages of support. Do we see those messages? No, we don't. No, she's turned off her comments on
13:37
social media. You can do that. But also bearing in mind um there's another book coming out. It should have it should
13:43
have been out in October, but that was obviously delayed because of I would imagine the the stories around uh Rain
13:50
Orwin and Sally Walker. Uh, but I imagine that will be coming out in the
13:55
new year at some point. That's it. So, there's a buildup to a new book coming out and that's her herself walking again
14:03
uh to clear her mind, not with moth this time. And so, I just wonder if this is
14:08
the start of the publicity drive for that. Well, it certainly sounds as if it could
14:14
be, doesn't it? But the broader zeitgeist issue is perhaps the truth. As
14:20
long as you're prepared to say this is my truth, um it doesn't matter that in
14:25
fact that what you're saying is a complete and utter fabrication, as long as you're able to double down and say,
14:31
well, it's true to me. And the saddest part of um the documentary, the update on where it's
14:37
all got to, was this this poor man who's suffering from the same brain disease that Moth has. Uh and he read the book. He was
14:44
recommended it and his wife read the book as well. And um he thought crikey there's there's hope. Maybe this isn't
14:52
the end of it. Maybe he said he just given up and thought, "Well, that's it. You know, I'm just going to live with it." He thought, "Well, go maybe there
14:58
is something. Maybe I should fight against it." And so he's devastated. And he says his wife even more so.
15:03
Yeah. That you know, perhaps this is not right. And of course they had a neurologist who came on who who lives
15:10
and works with people who do have this dreadful degenerative disease saying that lifespan
15:17
maybe 8 years if you're very very lucky. Uh the longest he ever had a patient
15:22
patient live for was 9 years and by that point their face goes with this illness.
15:27
And also they need 24-hour care. He's never heard of anyone, never living as
15:33
long as 18 years as Moth now has since diagnosis. And certainly not someone who's active
15:40
and able to do things. And you would think if there if Mo had been treated by a doctor who was aware of this condition
15:48
and the longevity expectation of it, then surely there'd be papers written for the Lancet of this medical marvel.
15:55
And he said, "There's been nothing. I've not seen that." So he's entirely skeptical, but she doubles down on that.
16:02
Yeah. Well, she Well, she just says he was diagnosed with this and but I've seen what she's released.
16:08
It's redacted in some points, but um it does seem to confirm that the moth had
16:14
the uh neurological uh issue CBD that he claims to have had that is
16:21
reversed as a consequence of walking. Of course, no one wants to say, "Right, prove it." especially when it's someone's personal medical condition.
16:27
But having said that, this is what the book was sold on. You know, I don't care too much about,
16:33
you know, embezzlement or fraud or stealing money or whatever it might be, although awful though it is. And that if
16:40
she can lie about that, that makes you think what else is not true in the book. But I do think the whole thing and coming from a family now who's living
16:46
with a brain disease that that suggestion that by walking, you know, in
16:52
the fresh air, we all know it's good for you, but it's not going to slow things down and it's not going to stop a brain
16:57
disease. I don't care what anybody says. I My wife can't even get around to lawn this two blocks away without being
17:02
exhausted or confused or worried. So, I just don't believe that you can do
17:08
hundreds of miles on, you know, a an exposed headland around the south coast
17:15
of England, uh, with that kind of condition. No, I I think I'm with you on side and I
17:21
should ask, never mind. We're doing a podcast. How is Fiona? No, great. And it's wretched. Every day
17:26
is wretched. Um, but we just get through and Christmas Day will be just another
17:31
wretched day. But again, I do think, you know, we're the lucky ones. We don't have uh what she has. And I can't step
17:39
into her mind as to what she's thinking. Um but know the poor thing, you know, we
17:45
just, you know, with the family, thank goodness, we can just get by and and care for her as best we can. Uh until we
17:51
can. And maybe that day will come. I don't know. So, it's dayto-day. Bless you. Bless you.
17:57
Now, the second um story update we have, which is a very recent one. So, it was just a few weeks ago that we did uh Paul
18:03
Doyle, who of course uh was the Liverpool ram raider car attacker who has been sentenced to jail
18:10
for 21 years and 6 months. Now, that was a surprise to me that he got that length
18:17
of term, but not you. No. And I think the judge had prepared us, didn't he, by saying there would be
18:23
a substantial prison sentence. I think you could take the view that um for me
18:29
it seemed an appropriate sentence. He harmed a significant number of people in what he did and also some of those
18:36
people that he harmed were very young. You know, there was a baby involved. Children were involved. Um,
18:45
and I think I didn't say the last time we did this podcast about Paul Doyle,
18:50
but I think I'm now prepared to say I did write to the trial judge um because I felt that
18:58
um he needs help. Uh yeah, and I felt what he was experiencing was a catathyic crisis. And
19:04
I did say in the podcast that we did that some things might emerge that
19:10
aren't in the public domain yet. And of course, what has emerged is that he um
19:15
had been convicted of uh biting a man's ear off in a pub brawl. Uh but that had
19:23
been over 30 years prior to this incident uh incident. And I still think
19:30
that with Doyle, we are dealing with somebody who has untreated
19:36
um issues that should be helped whilst he is in custody. I do think this is a
19:43
catathy crisis and I do think that he would benefit from there being
19:48
significant psychological intervention whilst he's in custody. I mean, the judge's view was that he
19:54
lost his temper in a rage. And I don't I don't buy that. I mean, there was a
19:59
narrative that he was just an angry, entitled white man. And that was the
20:06
narrative that was being and still being talked about by many of the the police officers that I saw interviewed, by the
20:13
judge himself, uh by the dash cam footage, which people have placed a lot of importance on. But I don't think it
20:21
captures somebody I don't think it captures the
20:26
deeper underlying psychological um reality of what was happening to him
20:33
in that moment. And for me that isn't me trying to be a dogooder. For me it's
20:40
about trying to understand. It's always about the why. Why is this happening?
20:46
And the why is really important to me because at the end of the sentence that
20:52
person do in this case Doyle is going to be released back into the community. And if you don't know why
21:00
you you can't take the risk that they won't do it again. So you've got to
21:05
understand the why and you've got to help them deal with what it is that's
21:10
causing these issues to emerge in the first place. and he seemed to be genuinely remorseful uh like a broken
21:17
man. And I mean he I think even when he was arrested he just knew you know he'd put his family into the most awful
21:22
position and and that was characteristic of the catathy crisis an acute catathomic
21:28
crisis that once the the crisis is over suddenly there's a return to normality
21:34
suddenly there is a realization oh my gosh what have I done this is appalling
21:39
and one saw that now I know that he didn't immediately admit his guilt I
21:45
know that he had a He said he thought there were he was being attacked. All of
21:51
those things, you know, all of those things um don't seem to me to undermine
21:58
the analysis that I gave in our first podcast. But more importantly, rather than trying to justify myself, I just
22:06
feel this is somebody that needs psychological intervention at a deep and
22:11
consistent level whilst he's in jail so as to make sure that this kind of
22:17
incident in relation to him never happens again when ultimately he because he is going to be released. Is there
22:24
capacity in Britain's jails for that kind of help? No, no, no, there's not. I mean, the
22:29
whole thing seems to be crumbling, falling down. Who's going to help him? Well, and that's why part of what I
22:36
wrote to the trial judge was saying, you know, you should say in your sentencing remarks that this man should spend some
22:42
time at HMP Grenon, the only prison in the country that operates entirely as a
22:48
psychonamic therapeutic community. And I do genuinely think that Paul Doyle would
22:53
benefit from going into therapy at that jail for a significant number of years.
22:59
Now, the trial judge did not mention HMPP Grandon in his sentencing remarks.
23:05
So, in one sense, it was a a wasted email on my part. Uh, but I hope through
23:10
the podcast I'm saying again, Paul Doyle will benefit from going to some place
23:16
like HMP Grenon. Another uh big um popular podcast that
23:24
we did and seems to be, you know, always will be is Meline McCann. Yeah. And what happened this year was of
23:30
course the convicted rapist Christian Brookner, the German uh was uh released
23:36
from his time uh serving time for the rape of a very elderly lady and uh
23:43
refused to talk to the Metropolitan Police who are still looking into the Meline McCann disappearance. But now he
23:49
is a free man. Uh he was under a tag. I believe he is now free in Germany to
23:56
travel if he wants. He has his passport taken off him. But he has an identity card which he still retains which means
24:03
within the land mass of Europe, he can move around now. Isn't that frightening? Isn't that an absolutely frightening
24:10
possibility? Um uh this is a undifferentiated sex offender. He's um
24:17
sexually attacked young people. He's sexually attacked old people. He's sexually attacked children. So, this is
24:24
an undifferentiated sex offender. That in itself is incredibly unusual. We know that he's an
24:31
incredibly and we interviewed uh Graeme Hill. We interviewed Graeme Hill for
24:37
that episode of the podcast. We know that he is a good um the likely suspect
24:43
for the for the abduction and murder of Maline Mamm. It's a frightening prospect that he can be geographically wandering
24:51
outside the confines of Germany and going to wherever it is that he chooses to go to. Madeline Macccan uh was also
25:00
though part of our discussion in relation to the Polish woman who felt
25:06
that she was Madlin Macan. Julia Vanelt Vandelt um who was found
25:13
guilty of harassing Kate and Jerry Macccan but not of stalking them which
25:19
was a surprise to me. Uh I mean for me it was a clear case of stalking and I
25:24
remember thinking you know if that jury doesn't think that's stalking you know which what on earth are they going to
25:31
think of other stalking cases as and I say that as someone who has been stalked
25:37
um and so it was a surprise but it her name cropped into my head when you were mentioning Rainor Win because of course
25:45
uh Rainor Win is active on social media again and Julia Vandel else been active
25:51
on social media? Well, she has almost like social media diarrhea. Quite frankly, she's been deported quite rightly back to she she
25:58
was sentenced for a year. Uh but she spent most of that time on remand. So, uh she was pretty much after the court
26:04
case she was put on a plane back to Poland, which is where she is. And she
26:09
hasn't gone quietly though. She is really prolific on social media um talking about now it's full of those
26:16
kind of I don't know six form common room kind of you know proverbs people put up and quotations
26:22
and she's even got music up there as well with lyrics that mean something. It's all about uh you know the inner me
26:28
and this is my voice is in here and outside what you see is not the real me. Again, basically alluding to the fact
26:34
that she still thinks she is Meline Macccan or someone else, but not who everyone has told her who she is and DNA
26:40
has told her who she is. She's a Polish woman who was born to a Polish family and she's not any of the people she
26:46
thinks she might be. But of course, she has unlike Rainor Win or Sally Walker,
26:51
she has the comments turned on in her social media. And what are people saying? Well, well, good on you and you
26:57
know, I hope you find your peace. but also they can't help it but they come through the conspiracy theorists are in
27:03
there as well you know let's talk again in the new year and you know let's you know hope your search is fruitful blah
27:08
blah blah as we go on so you just know it's bubbling away and she's being careful you know not to tempt fate by
27:16
you know going back into the madlin thing but you can see and literally it's almost every 10 minutes
27:23
you know through the day she's posting stuff so that again this is a woman who clearly needs help Yeah, absolutely. I I
27:29
I have to say you suddenly made me think what was Martin Friselle's six form
27:35
common room like were you were you putting up poems and inspirational quotes? It's all those things you
27:41
used to be the penguin modern classics so sort of you know great authors from the past and what did they say in their quotations and it's just nonsense. It
27:48
doesn't mean anything really. What are you trying to prove? Who are you trying to who are you trying to say it to in
27:54
terms of oh this is how I'm feeling and here's how we should sort of you know abide by and be construct our life with
28:02
oh get just get on with things don't and and the other person that's cropped up in in relation to this story is of
28:09
course Jerry Macccan himself gave an interview to BBC radio 4 and you know
28:15
you're a very experienced journalist I've never known how this works to be perfectly honest. Um, people want
28:23
publicity. The Macs wanted publicity. You were the first to give them publicity as the editor of Good Morning
28:29
Britain. But once they get the publicity, they say, "Oh, that's enough publicity and now you're intruding on my
28:36
life." How I mean, for me, it's always felt like it's almost like they've got a tiger by the tail. How what advice do
28:44
you give to people about look, you've got to be careful here. What are the boundaries that somebody like Jerry M
28:51
Kate McCann should have provided in relation to this desperate desire to get
28:56
publicity to publicize the fact their daughter had gone missing. It's it's a new phenomenon and they are right at the
29:03
front of it and there have been people since then who've maybe been through similar stuff but nothing quite like the Macan's which is worldwide. It's not
29:11
just the Lester Mercury or the Daily Mirror or the Sun. This is a worldwide. She is the world's most famous missing
29:19
person and the family are still here and of course their her siblings are trying to have a life. Sean and Amily are doing
29:27
very well. Um and they're just trying to get on with their life without being you know the brother and sister of missing
29:33
Maline Macan. But but you're right. I mean, it was they had to orchestrate the
29:40
media coverage at the start because they thought they weren't getting the help from the Portuguese police and of course
29:46
it's a Portuguese investigation. So, what could British police do? So, they had to get something going. And then, of
29:52
course, they believe, you know, the police turned on them for whatever reason and they became suspects themselves. Uh, and now all these years
29:59
on you, Jerry still believes until he's told otherwise that Madlin's alive somewhere. Yeah.
30:05
And so there's still hope against hope that something will come through. Um, and it's magical thinking, isn't it?
30:12
That that's not a reality that's ever going to uh materialize. Of course, but
30:18
but again, it's a bit like, as I said before, the last time we spoke about it, when you go to charity events with them,
30:25
you feel guilty if you're laughing because even all all those years on, time moves on, of course, you don't want
30:31
to be seen to be enjoying yourself when there's a couple there, you know, who still don't know where their child is and still hold a candle quite rightly
30:38
for her. Um, and so it's it's when when Jerry and Kate, can they be seen to be
30:44
laughing or enjoying themselves or being on holiday? And also in the in the age even more so now than when Madlin first
30:50
went missing of social media and phones that can take pictures if they go I'm
30:56
quite sure across newspaper desks will come pictures of people who are on the same cruise ship or the same center
31:02
parks or whatever it might be as the Macan family are now. Oh, that's them. Look, they're all laughing and smiling
31:08
and giggling and having fun. you know, look what they're doing now or or they're getting on with their lives kind of stuff. And I think you'll find that
31:13
Fleet Street, which is kind of the old name for it. But Britain's media, we're well aware of that now. And by and
31:19
large, it is run by really decent people and they won't be they won't be posting those pictures. There will be others who
31:26
are freelancers, who are chancers, who will try and and do it. But I think by
31:32
and large most people who are running the media in Britain these days will be respectful of what the Macccans have
31:39
been going through and still are. Well, I I hope that's the case. And I hope and this is one of those words that
31:46
I I actually loathe but and it's an American concept, but I do hope they the
31:53
Macans find some closure to this. And I I I worked with a number of families
31:59
who've had children go missing or children who've been murdered. And
32:05
what I know is that every family will find their own form of closure. And
32:12
there's no right recipe for what that might be. It is individualized.
32:19
And the thing that I always remember encouraging people about is find your own way of making closure as opposed to
32:27
waiting for the police to give you a form of closure as opposed to the media giving you a form of closure. But it's
32:33
about taking control of the situation that you you find yourself in, as
32:39
appalling as that situation is, and finding a way to come to terms with it. And it doesn't help when nutters like
32:44
Julia Vandel come through and say, "Actually, I'm your missing daughter." And of course, she's one of 12 12 women
32:51
who say they are Meline McCann. Yeah. Yeah. So, you can't close the door on it because it's always out there.
32:57
Yeah. And and if it's not reported in the press, but it's still in social media. And of course, the whole conspiracy
33:03
around Maline Macan, you know, all those weirdos, quite honestly, uh just love to
33:09
keep it going. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that's that. and and and the conspiracy stuff which we
33:14
did we did mention one or two of our podcasts but not in terms of moving forward in terms of our uh things that
33:21
are still happening next year. How do you overcome a conspiracy? You know, you think one one would think rationally
33:27
that one overcomes a conspiracy by providing information by talking about
33:32
the truth. But there's that that zeitgeist issue again whereby the
33:38
concept of information, the concept of truth is simply seen as being partial that there is no such thing as an
33:45
objective truth. And that I think it well I usually blame French philosophy at this point. I usually mention Fuko,
33:52
don't I? I mean that's been for me for my in my life one of the saddest
33:58
consequences of the popularity of that kind of uh that kind of thinking uh
34:05
which mostly comes from Fuko and one or two other French philosophers that has grabbed hold of people whereby they
34:13
think as long as you hold an opinion sincerely and repeatedly that somehow that in itself becomes knowledge.
34:20
Opinion and knowledge are two separate categories. Talking of closure, um another um
34:27
podcast that we did that did very well this year was about Susie Lamploo. Oh, there's a form of closure. Yeah.
34:34
Her brother Richard has now come out again just in the past week or two saying that he believes that next year,
34:40
which will be the 40th, can you believe it? The 40th anniversary of Susie Lamplau going missing will be the year
34:45
that the police shut up shop on it. Apparently, they still have an open case
34:50
file. There are still people looking into it when new evidence comes through. Don't know what it might be, but he
34:56
believes next year will be the year that they just say, "Look, uh, it's an appropriate time to close it now."
35:02
Well, you know, I know Richard. I've interviewed Richard on a couple of occasions. I knew Diana Lamploo um well
35:09
and um and if ever they there was a family who found a way of closing that
35:16
particular investigation, it would be the Lamploose. They they were extraordinarily Well, he set up the trust.
35:22
They set up a trust, the Susie Lamploo Trust there. They they they they channeled their energies into making uh
35:29
women women's lives safer. Um, and also
35:35
they they I mean Diana said, Richard said, "Well, look, we know who killed
35:40
what happened to Susie. We know who killed her." They always believed it was John Cannon who, as you know, is dead.
35:46
Um, and so they they had found their own form of closure. They found their own way to come to terms with the
35:54
disappearance and murder of Suzie. And, you know, all credit to them for being able to do so. And I think in terms of
36:01
the police formally closing the case um is you know uh I think the lamp blues
36:09
came to the same conclusion many many years ago. But why haven't the police closed it by now? Why don't if if the general feeling
36:15
is that Canon was the man who did it? Why don't they just why have they not closed it long before now?
36:22
Well because people will still come forward. It's part of that conspiracy theory. In the same way we've been talking about Madaline McCann being the
36:30
most famous missing child in the world, Susie Lamploo's case was,
36:37
you know, a seinal moment in the lives of many, many people in this country.
36:43
And therefore, the Susie Lamploo case, she still has name recognition 40 years
36:49
later in relation to what happened to her. And so, of course, the police are always going to be on the back foot if
36:55
they say they've closed the case because there will be people even today coming forward saying, "Oh, I think I somebody
37:03
said something to me and I think this is the person who abducted and murdered Susie Lamploo." So, they just don't want
37:09
to appear on the back foot. I think now this year we had some two and froy Epstein and uh the the missing minute or
37:17
minutes and what happened to him in his prison cell. I'm not going to go there as such because nothing more has come
37:22
out on that. But Gain Maxwell again, literally as we're recording this, is
37:28
active. So, there's an update on this. She has applied to a federal judge to um
37:34
set aside her conviction for sex trafficking and quash her 20-year sentence. She claims there's substantial
37:41
new evidence that shows there were what she calls constitutional. She's doing this herself. She's not got a lawyer.
37:47
She's doing this herself cuz maybe money presume money's tight. There's constitutional violations that spoiled
37:54
her trial. So, an independent jury of uh men and women, good and true, uh would
38:01
not have an open mind. And so, it's a miscarriage of justice. Um well, I think we should I mean,
38:07
let her out for Christmas. She's definitely not going to be let out for Christmas. But you are quite right
38:13
in that when we last spoke about the Epstein case and Galain Maxwell, she had
38:20
been moved to uh an open prison type thing in Texas. In a Florida, isn't it? Florida.
38:25
I thought she was in Florida, then moved to the open prison in Texas for Brian. Oh, well, she's an open prison now.
38:31
An open prison. So she's she's got and that had been after talking to um an one
38:39
of the Trump administration in relation to what was going to come out in relation to the Epstein file. The date
38:46
is coming up when the Epstein files it's as of recording it's tomorrow. Uh
38:51
presidential decree it all has to be published. So search warrants uh video
38:56
uh emails transcription of phone calls. It's going to be fascinating in the next few days where it goes.
39:02
Well, and and of course, um, if it's not redacted, of course. Well, I'm sure it's going to be
39:07
redacted. And the other thing, so there are two things, aren't there, in terms of an update. The first is obviously V
39:16
Virginia Du Fray and Virginia Du Fray's um death and her family and her family
39:23
talking about their disappointment in relation to the Metropolitan Police not
39:28
carrying forward an investigation into Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. Um, and also
39:35
we should say and I'm kind of conflicted in terms of Maxwell in one sense because
39:43
nobody seems to me because of course Epstein takes his own life. Um, as far
39:48
as I'm concerned, nobody no man has been punished. Yeah, I that that's what gets
39:55
me about the whole thing is she's she did wrong. Of course, she's been banged up for 20 years, but she's the only person in all this and all the great and
40:02
the good and the famous who are kind of worrying about, oh, am I going to be named or fingered for this, whatever it is, no one else has been brought to book
40:07
on this. I and it it does seem a terrible injustice. That's the
40:13
injustice. Why are none of these famous men that are photographed and writing
40:20
lovely things to Jeffrey Epstein on his birthday? Why are none of those? Or where's the American police inquiry into
40:26
this? Yeah, rather than just, you know, appearing before congressional committees, where's the actual who's the detective? Who's
40:32
the Columbbo, the Kjak? Who's sorting this out? Who said, "Right, I've got the
40:38
files. I'm going to start to make some arrests on this because clearly a lot of people knew what was going on there."
40:44
Yeah, absolutely. And facilitated what was going on there. And that of course is the basis of a lot
40:52
of the MAGA support for Trump because a lot of his support he promised them that
40:59
the Epstein files were going to be released in their entirety and it's only coming up tomorrow is that we're
41:06
eventually going to see that. And some of the photographs that have been released there because there's been a
41:12
drip drip of release. Some of the photographs that have been released I've seen before, frankly, but there were one
41:18
or two new ones. And it is quite clear that there may be
41:25
material that will again undermine Trump's MAGA supporters in relation to
41:31
the fact that actually Trump has got something that he has to justify his behavior here. But also uh yeah, Maxwell
41:40
was taken by authorities and she has been found guilty and convicted in spending time. But it seems to be a lot
41:47
of the victims of these young women uh now a bit older, they're they're having
41:52
to take private prosecutions. Yeah. Against the estate of Epstein or
41:57
whatever. So it's down to them. Whereas what I'm saying is hang on, where's the concerted, you
42:03
know, one point of contact? This is what we're going to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. No. Um I mean it is
42:09
slightly confused um in terms of that legal response though um Martin and I'm
42:15
not I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying it's slightly confused because sometimes there are state laws,
42:21
sometimes there are federal laws and and that kind of that kind of makes it more difficult to find the one point of
42:27
contact that you've been describing. Now uh the final update we have on a
42:33
story again which uh was worldwide. Uh, let me let me just read some of the blurb because it's currently just gone
42:40
on release on a streamer coming to near you. So, it says, "In a quiet corner of
42:46
Australia, a normal family lunch turns fatal and the world can't look away."
42:55
We're talking about death by Beef Wellington, of course. We're back to Erin Patterson, um, who
43:03
poisoned Yes. her her family uh killed three and
43:08
attempted to murder um another of her in-laws. And so she has been put away
43:15
for many many years. And this of course is death by death cap mushrooms. And the
43:20
update on it is is that as we knew is going to be made into documentaries and
43:25
films. It's just dropped for Christmas. Merry Christmas. What you What are you having on your
43:32
Christmas table this year? Well, can I just tell you, you've got a future doing, I think, those adverts for films
43:39
coming up. That was a wonderful way of introducing the new Netflix series. I've actually read two of the new books um
43:48
that have been published about Erin Patterson. Did you learn anything new? No, not one thing. Not one thing. I read
43:55
one I I forget the the three authors names of the first book I read. Three
44:00
women. What I found interesting about their book is that the three women started out very much on the side of
44:09
Erin Patterson. As I was, as you were I remember going, Martin,
44:14
she's as guilty as sin. And um it was quite interesting watching reading how
44:20
quickly they changed their mind when they would turn up at the trial in Leon Gatha every day. Um and I was interested
44:28
therefore in women talking about a a woman and initially
44:34
being on side and how quickly they changed their view. Um, so I've read a couple of the books. Um, but we knew,
44:42
did we not, because it was a worldwide story that this was always going to have
44:50
a life after the conviction and sentencing of Erin Patterson. It's one
44:56
of those stories that has universal appeal and partly I think has got a universal appeal is because of the way
45:03
you set it up. It did seem like a normal family lunch. It's everything that all
45:10
of us can identify with. There was an immediate psychological proximity. We go
45:17
to family lunches um with one another and there might be tensions between
45:22
members of the family, but we don't ever expect to end up dead as a consequence
45:27
of what it was we were eating. And that's partly though the problem with the premise of the Netflix series
45:34
because it really wasn't a normal family lunch. There were tensions in the
45:40
background before all of those guests turned up. And of course, the real
45:45
object of Erin Patterson's eye was her former husband. But the jury weren't
45:51
told what she had done, tried to poison him in the past. That evidence wasn't brought forward in court. So they had to
45:57
make their mind up on just what they had in front of them, which and again I understand why in this country as well,
46:03
you know, previous convictions, you know, are not admissible in court. You know, you just have to make up your mind on the current thing that you've been
46:08
shown. I do think in those kind of cases if the jury had been told, "Oh, by the way, she tried to poison her husband to
46:14
start off with, why would you not say that?" Because then that really would, you know, make it all kind of fall into
46:20
place. Well, he wasn't. I remember it was like, was it eight or nine weeks we went through in this thing
46:26
all over some mushrooms? I remember you were in sense by the length of time you were like,
46:32
I was googling how many people in Australia have died from death cap mushrooms. Turns out there was 16 people
46:37
who died. The majority of them, almost all of them, apart from her in in-laws and um her family, uh were of Chinese
46:44
descent because it's a very the death caps are very similar to Chinese mushrooms to a to a very common mushroom used in
46:51
Chinese cooking uh which you would get from a Chinese wholesaler or supertore
46:56
and which I think she was trying to suggest, oh, I must have mixed it up with the mushrooms I got from the
47:01
Chinese grocerers which he hadn't been to. But you know, one of the things that I wanted from the two books that I read
47:10
about the case since her conviction and imprisonment is I wanted to know more
47:16
about the why. I'm always interested in She still hasn't said why. And I'm always interested in the why.
47:22
That's, you know, what I what what really made me a criminologist. You know, I I
47:29
want to know why are you behaving like this? And I've got no further forward in the why at all to be perfectly honest um
47:37
than I was when we last did the podcast. Maybe something will emerge in uh 2026
47:45
that gives us some better insight into her psychology. Um but yeah, I'm still
47:52
struggling with why did she do it? And does it always have to be complicated or could it just be like a really simple reason? Well, you know, if
47:59
you're going to kill, she intended to kill four, she kills three, and one,
48:05
thank God, survives. And if her husband had been there, she would have attempted to kill. You know, a simple reason
48:11
doesn't actually um allow for the the idea that you're going to commit
48:18
mass murder, but also they were in pain as well. So, they must taken to hospital. There must have been liver failure. It must have
48:25
been excruciating pain for them. and she checked herself in there as well as part
48:30
of I suppose her her alibi. Um, but she knew they were in there and if she told the doctors are saying if she told us at
48:37
that point this is what I gave them or this is what they ate then they could probably have I
48:43
don't know if they'd saved them but certainly you know alleviated some of the awfulness they were going through. Well, I did say in the podcast when we
48:50
spoke about this that the element of sadism there that she would quite clearly be watching her in-laws uh
48:58
eating what she knew to be death cap mushrooms. And there's a sadistic
49:03
element to that. And um but you know, this is speculation on my part. The bit
49:10
that I took away from all of our discussions about Aaron Patterson was it was the plates that got me. and you were
49:17
not having any of it. And interestingly, I kept going, but Martin, she had a
49:23
different colored plate that she served herself with. She gives her guests with a death cap mushroom beef Wellington a
49:31
different colored plate. So, of course, she did it. But that's why this time of year at Christmas if you're having
49:37
family round at Christmas time you probably will have maybe you haven't got
49:42
a dinner service that's you know eight is it six or is it eight plates is it more than that whatever it is so people
49:48
will be having different color plates and I just know as well we're lucky I think we probably have got maybe four or
49:54
five plates of the same but a lot of people will have just different odd crockery
49:59
so that that that to me that to me wasn't the slam dunk See, I love the idea that you're still
50:06
you're we're still discussing crockery. Um will you would you be allowed to to
50:12
discuss um true crime over Christmas lunch? Is that the kind of would that be
50:18
a subject that wouldn't be appropriate for Christmas lunch? People love Christmas ghost stories, but would they
50:24
talk about Christmas crime stories? No, cuz I mean at the end it's gory and
50:29
uh I don't think it's appropriate at Christmas. I think just give yourself Christmas off from thinking about you
50:36
should do that as well from just talking about crime and let's just be upbeat and eternally positive and hoping the new
50:43
year now next year there's some good crime stories that we know already are coming through Luigi Manion is going to
50:48
be the big trial of the year probably and so I imagine early in the new year when we come back very early in the new
50:54
year that will be um the focus of uh one of our first podcasts and I will I will be without doubt
51:02
wanting to talk about Steve Wright who's on trial for the murder of Vicky Hall at the old Bailey. Um I want Steve Wright,
51:10
you know, the press, Chris and Tim the Suffach Strangler. But all 20 years ago,
51:16
20 years ago, Martin, I said I wrote I I have a book in which I say he murdered
51:22
Vicky Hall and four other women. And um I just hope this is the beginning of if
51:28
he's found guilty. I just hope this is the beginning of the Norfolk and Suffach police deciding that there are other
51:35
women out there that Steve Wright might have killed. And just finally, I imagine we might
51:41
hear a bit more about Baroness Mon and her husband and PPE. When will it
51:46
ever end? Yes. When will it ever end? And what is happening about that? I still don't know
51:52
myself. Who knows? We'll find out. I think in the new year. Uh but from us to everybody watching and listening, have a
51:57
lovely merry Christmas. Uh, and we'll see you in the new year. Merry Christmas, everybody. And it's
52:03
been wonderful working with you. Thank you.