To tell them not to bother coming for Xmas?

[WantToHibernate]

We are doing Xmas dinner this year for my husbands family and my mum and brother. We have a mix of vegans, vegetarians and meat eaters so dinner menu will reflect this.

I’ve been vegan for 20 years and my daughter who is 17 has become vegan this year. My husband and other child eat meat.

My mother and brother have always disapproved of me being vegan. Over the years they’ve told me I’m wrong and will be ill. They also do stupid things like make animal noises when they eat meat which I just roll my eyes at. Now they’ve found out, whilst discussing Xmas dinner menus at our house this weekend, that my daughter has become vegan and they’ve responded as expected, telling her she’ll be ill, that she shouldn’t listen to me ‘brainwashing and bullying’ her, quizzing her on why she has become vegan, telling her she’s mad and no better than them. My daughter remained calm, said it was her decision, that I obviously haven’t bullied or brainwashed her, that she doesn’t think she’s any better than anyone else, she just wants to be vegan. When they continued were quiz her on why she has become a vegan, they called her a ‘typical preachy vegan’. She wasn’t preaching, she just answered their questions.

Things got heated as my mother started shouting. I told her that she doesn’t get to shout at my daughter in our house about this, and that if they both don’t stop the comments they can leave and not bother coming for Xmas. My brother said our mum can say what she likes and that I owed my mum an apology for saying that. My daughter left the room. My son told my mum and brother that they were out of line and went to check on my daughter. My mum and brother left.

My brother text later on to say that when they come on Xmas day they don’t want to be seated by me or my daughter. I’ve not responded as I wanted to cool down before I did, but my husband has said to just uninvited them because they’re arseholes and he’s not risking them upsetting our daughter on Xmas day. My daughter says she isn’t bothered and thinks they’re idiots.

If I uninvite them, I think that will probably be the end of my relationships with them but I think that is possibly for the best. There have been lots of problems with them over the years and I think we may be happier without them. They have had issues with other aspects of our life, choices we’ve made, my husbands family (who are all lovely) who they see as ‘snobby’, so the vegan issue is just another thing. They are ok is small doses. My other siblings have low or no contact with them and although I invited them to dinner too, they won’t come because our mother and brother are coming.

It's only considered appalling behaviour in middle-class circles and above.
It would not be considered appalling in a working class environment.

That it turned to conflict is most likely because OP's mother feels acutely that she is being looked down on by her own daughter which is the more unacceptable behaviour in my opinion.

Veganism is strongly associated with class - it's a way for upwardly mobile females in particular to signal their social status:

https://www.bayes.citystgeorges.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/2019/september/vegan-ethics-identity-class-ideology-thomas-robinson#:~:text=Vegans%20generally%20need%20to%20be,in%20the%20world%20of%20work.

@JoClogs

It's only considered appalling behaviour in middle-class circles and above.
It would not be considered appalling in a working class environment.

What?? Baloney and patronising. OP was born into the same class as her mother, so presumably she knows what would be considered rude by other working class people?

That it turned to conflict is most likely because OP's mother feels acutely that she is being looked down on by her own daughter which is the more unacceptable behaviour in my opinion.

I think this poster is projecting. No evidence of any of this from OP's comments.

edited to include the poster of these comments

OP - ime boys often are under Mummy’s spell until around 25yo. When the scales fall of their eyes and mummy descends from the throne boy child had put her on.
you don’t say how old your brother is. But you may find something similar happens. Or perhaps not at all if she really has managed to isolate him to keep him for herself. But this is not your problem. Your kids and DH are what you need to take care of.

stand firm. Well done.

They've already been told this, it's been made very very clear.

Their response is 'we don't want to sit next to OP or her DD' ...

Not 'we're sorry, we promise we'll not mention it again'. Not 'we realise now it's not funny and we'll leave you guys alone'..

Just 'when we come for Christmas dinner we don't want to sit next to the vegans'.

Fuck that entirely and completely. They've had their chance and it sounds like they've had multiple chances to behave appropriately and they have zero intention of doing so.

The focus of pp on the vegan aspect of all this is interesting. Pp have chosen to declare their own dietary choices as if it affects their view of what happened, some have made stereotyped assumptions about how veganism came up , others post (very interesting, IMO) essays on the social constructs around diet.

However, this whole issue is not about veganism or the OP’s diet. It’s irrelevant.

The mother has been awkward hostile and unpleasant throughout the OP’s childhood. Long before she became vegan. The mother’s behaviour has alienated the OP’s siblings who have gone very low contact, nothing to do with siblings diet. The mother’s behaviour has undermined the brother’s life, stopping him pursuing his Uni course etc - and the brother is not vegan.

This is about the mother’s general behaviour. The reaction to veganism is just one way she demonstrates it.

All the Christmases and family events where your kids must have stood by and watched as their mother was pulled apart by her own mother, and their mother just sucked it up, with their dad occasionally stepping in and saying (with what appears to be very little gumption given they have continued on for years and years) tone it down.

and now your kids are uprising! Good on them. It’s just a shame it took them to actually address this properly

@JoClogs
FFS - It's nothing to do with class. You shouldn't make mocking sounds of animals whilst eating a meal with vegans and vegetarians.

It's basic manners or are you saying WC people aren't capable of being socially civil?

You are conflating 2 totally separate things social class and acceptable behaviour

@JoClogs

It's only considered appalling behaviour in middle-class circles and above.
It would not be considered appalling in a working class environment.

please do elaborate on how you have this deep insight in to various classes

The cognitive dissonance is strong with those two!

They're ignorant, misinformed, and exceptionally rude. No way would they be welcome to sit at my table after behaving like that. Uninvite them...if that means the breakdown of your relationship, it doesn't sound like that'd be much of a loss.

I've never heard such bollocks in a long time. Classic carnivorous cognitive dissonance!

Veganism has precisely fuck all to do with class.

Well they clearly weren't eating healthily then, were they? It's possible to be healthy or unhealthy regardless of what type of diet you follow.

A vegan diet provides all the nutrients required (including B12 which is abundant in many leafy green vegetables).

I've been vegan since 1981 and I'm perfectly fit and healthy. I know plenty of people who are younger than me and very unhealthy with numerous health conditions that require multitudes of medicines and limit how they live their lives. None of them are vegans.

If people are becoming very ill on a vegan diet, they're doing something very wrong!

I think that saying that 'the working class' don't follow the same social rules- when the specific examples given by the OP are that her mother is rude, toxic, berates her, shouts at her granddaughter in her own home, gets drunk and possibly kicks off on Christmas day (thus being violent and aggressive by definition) is ... incredibly classist and patronising, @JoClogs .

A vegan diet provides all the nutrients required (including B12 which is abundant in many leafy green vegetables).

@OneWildBiscuit I think you are confusing this with iron. Vitamin B12 is the only nutrient that is not naturally available in plant based foods.

Several food items are fortified with it - cereals, plant milks, tofu etc.

As for @JoClogs will you stop with the "working class people don't know how to behave" nonsense!

Every time you post your made up theories you dig yourself into a deeper hole.

My mother was from a poor background but became a total middle class snob. Which was largely unconnected to her narcissistic behaviour which made me cut off all contact with her a decade ago. Some parents are toxic. Please stop blaming the OP, she's been an absolute hero taking toxic shit from her mother in an attempt to protect her little brother.

Now she needs to join the rest of her siblings in cutting contact to protect herself.

Is it classicism/snobby to look down on/be embarrassed about someone who makes animal noises whilst eating?

They sound deranged.

Oh come on. No one above the age of 20 will tolerate being chastised by their mother regardless of class. Tolerating her mom when she was younger was a survival mechanism. Something she had to do. She now has her own family & quite frankly she’s put up with it far too long only biting when it came to her own child. This isn’t about class it’s about entitlement. The mother coming to someone else’s house & putting down the law. I’m sure if she had expressed her concerns in a normal way she’d still be invited to dinner. The OP isn’t banning meat but is actually accommodating all diets. Which I must say is going above & beyond because I’ve known & found it completely reasonable to ask guests with dietary preferences to bring their own food as it’s to much for one person to cook several different dishes

That's hilarious.
DH and I are from working class backgrounds and (quelle horreur!) both vegan.
The northern town we live in is pretty run down and very working class, not the kind of place you get fancy vegan restaurants, and I know at least 50 local vegans and almost all of them are working class.
Ridiculous.

Well done OP, really feel for you.

Trying to to do the right thing by your younger brother, at least your older siblings and you are all on the same page.

All this class rubbish and accusing OP of going on about being vegan won't wash because her husband and other child manage to cope with her and they live with her. Also OP said her now vegan daughter had been vegan for months before her GM found out so OP was hardly crowing about converting her.
Happy Christmas OP 🎄

They can fuck right off let alone for the vegan bashing but for shouting at your DD. If a member if my family did that to my DS I’d escort them out my door before they could say Christmas dinner.

But of course, the working classes could not possibly be expected to comport themselves with dignity. How could they know any better than to make animal noises? Just as well you know how best to avoid looking down on them, @JoClogs . Please, tell us more!

The best response would be,

" I've decided not to have you/mum over on Christmas day, after the way you/mum behaved towards me and my daughter, so the seating arrangements won't be an issue"

Take care

If OP's mum is being looked down on by her daughter, it's because her mum is a rude, ungrateful twat, not because OP has now got ideas above her station.

Her mum is deeply unpleasant and that certainly isn't a working class trait.

Wow - that it such a classist statement, You are saying that working class people don't know how to behave at a dinner table because of different "social rules". Are you always so patronising to working class people?

My working class, cockney granny would not stand for any of your bollocks. Nor would she stand for animal noises at her dinner table.

Well said @thepariscrimefiles
DH's family is about as working class as you can get and they don't behave like this. SIL is vegetarian and has had no-one commenting negatively on her dietary choices (except that she is a plain eater and very fussy so eating out with her can be a trial).