Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

[CohensDiamondTeeth]

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

Why are you now leveraging people with differences of sex development into this discussion?

You really are now showing that you have spent far too long only reading transgender activist content. People with DSDs have asked to not be politically leveraged into these discussions as gotchas to prove points.

I look at my child and feel sad and nervous for what's to come. But that's society - that's uncaring or scared or misunderstanding others. I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute.

No I firmly disagree, you have as an adult given your child unreasonable expectations based on your belief that gender stereotypes should supercede sex based rights.

I feel sad for your child that you continue to lie to him about what his preference for girly things should mean .

Well done in standing up for girls!

But yes, this is an excellent example of the destabilising of language for this group’s political gain.

OK, I'm out for now. You simply can't be reading (or at least have the capacity to reflect on?) our replies if you think the above.

I've already addressed intersex, and 2) is an astonishing claim to make in the light of everything I and others have posted.

It's not far off like reading a Jane Austen novel (I intentionally flatter us 😅), then proclaiming, "I loved the bit about the spaceship!"

Solid, could I suggest you quote to justify your claims in future posts of this nature? You've nothing to lose in doing so - if you can find the material you need, and explain how it supports your claim, it'll make those claims that bit more convincing, and show I'm wrong about the spaceships.

that's the Doctor Upton argument!

A family member has a DSD and finds the idea that this might affect whether or not he's actually a man appallingly offensive.

Please try not to trample all over others who are different from you when arguing that sex and gender are different, or the same, or whatever it is you are even arguing....

"Unless you are wholly committed to sex-based rights, which are incredibly outdated and reductive".

Always interesting when the mask slips and the real agenda is exposed. It's reductive for women and girls to have boundaries from men. Reductive for women not to want to undress in front of random men. Reductive for lesbians to expect their same sex attraction to be respected etc etc etc.

That's a very revealing post.

Looking forward to hearing this too, for the first time.

Ok so in my specific example, which tent does a trans member sleep in, with their chosen or biological gender group? And are parents aware of these arrangements.

I'm not being goady these are specific concerns of parents.

An interesting website, thank you.

I'm genuinely not very activist, so of I'm quoting tropes that's probably a coincidence.

We fundamentally disagree on the legal/biological definition of "girl" so there's not much point in going round the houses again on that one.

I'm in the dentist waiting room with them but we'll have to go back to school before long, so what else do I ask them?

We've got as far as "things they are happy doing" being a differentiating factor between boys and girls.

What else should I be asking them to help them identify their gender(s)?

The thing is that your “legal and biological definition of girl” is incorrect. It’s not an opinion, you are simply legally and biologically inaccurate 🤷‍♀️

I don't know. I suppose she'd sleep with her friends? And yes, I would ensure that - in that situation - any other parents are aware of my child's sex / transgender status, just as I have done on playdates etc.

“I fundamentally disagree that murder is a crime”. Would sound ridiculous, no?

Currently. Laws and sciences are changeable - in fact it's necessary to societies progress that they do change as human understanding shifts.

you’re admitting that you speak in tropes and aren’t well versed on this subject. Bayswater know their stuff and don’t talk in transactivist jargon. It might be worth looking them up and helping your son rather than going along with all his demands.

Just to exemplify what I mean in my last request that you quote other posters to refute them, Solid, this is a great example, above, from Helle.

Whether or not you agree with her, she offers a strong argument: we have a precise quote from you under the spotlight, direct and detailed analysis of it (bit by bit with several sub-quotes), an explanation of where your misunderstanding may originate and a link to further reading to support this.

This approach is bread and butter to regular MN FWR posters, and I'd argue that's it's exactly because our case is so very strong that it's so very easy to support it in this way.

I also think it may be relevant here to say that this is also because we also genuinely believe in our case. Your cognitive dissonance and repeated contradictions - again, fairly convincingly challenged quite a few times, in much the way Helle posts above - makes me wonder if you really do believe in your own.

I really do sympathise with that emotional tug to support your child (I've tried to be gender neutral here to show as much respect to their beliefs as I feel able to myself, but have slipped a few times throughout the thread - apologies). But truly, the best way to do so is not the activist propaganda you're parrotting, but (I know, I know, speaking of parrotting 🦜) to read, read and read some more, including our posts, an outside so-called trans-supportive circles. We are, ourselves, very protective indeed of trans-identifying kids, with a great deal to offer that, having read and reflected on, you're more than entitled to reject. But you're clearly not reading and reflecting yet!

(I know this may sound patronising - please excuse that, it's born of frustration and a genuine desire to communicate).

But whether you disagree with the law or not, it’s the law nonetheless. The Supreme Court has clarified that for the purposes of the EA 2010, the cornerstone piece of equality legislation, “trans women” are men.

Also, most people also think that it’s not possible to change sex, so what “shift in understanding” do you imagine to have occurred @SolidMam?

They have the same problem and when I checked a couple of years back they were steadfastly ignoring it.

Yet you're arguing that women and girls expecting to undress in privacy from men, that single sex showers, hospital wards and sport are "outdated and reductive". That's a very niche trope to use.
And one I'm afraid to say is often promoted by a subset of very predatory adults. (That's not an accusation btw, it's an observation about the type of people who argue that safeguarding / safety boundaries are unnecessary for girls and women)

As Catiette has suggested above, you may want to read more widely abour safeguarding, women's rights and feminism before telling women that expecting privacy and safety from males is outdated and reductive.

I am sure that you have probably picked up the tactics that you have, intentionally or not, been duplicating and their discussion points because you will no doubt have been reading content to be informed. This is understandable. However, you have resorted to personal attacks on this thread and you don't seem to be registering that you have been doing it. Perhaps this is your normal approach.

Many of us on this thread have had these discussions for years. Quite a number of parents on MN that get involved in these discussions have had people in their lives with transgender identities.

I am not sure that you understand though just how deep the destabilisation of language has gone. You are here on this thread telling us your personal definition of words. If every person adopts their personal definition of words, it makes communication meaningless. There will be no accuracy.

This has been actually documented in the UK as a being a deliberate strategy by extreme transgender activists, those who demand the prioritisation of gender identity even when sex matters. There is a document called the Denton's Report that detailed the long term strategies.

There is also a Scottish female transgender activist, Morton, who was very upfront - she said that the strategy was to get male people accepted into female prisons based on them saying they were women. And once that was achieved, everything would fall into place.

Well, the lobby groups achieved that (to disastrous effect) and we are seeing the result in the filtering down. They aimed at prisons because to them that was the ultimate goal. If they could convince the world that male prisoners should share cells with female prisoners based on that male person's declaration - they felt no other organisation or group would have any wiggle room to not follow suit.

I can link you up to several strategy papers, including the Denton's report, if you don't believe this. I know that Catiette mentioned it too.

The destabilisation of language started decades ago. However, the implications, as you can see are immense and destructive. You believe it is progression, yet you don't seem to be able to articulate how this is progressive or give any depth of answers to the questions many posters have asked.

Has this caused you any dissonance at all? This lack of you being able to do more than give emotionally reasoned answers? Of answering in platitudes and empty sound bites?

Has it not raised more questions in your mind where you feel that you really don't have a depth of understanding of the back ground of this issue that you attack people to defend?

This.

The ideology of trans is a delution. Captured individuals promoting this to 'be kind' whilst being unkind to real women and girls.

The lot must fall down and proper mental health support for children, who've been damaged by this ideology.

Prosecutions for those pushing the damage as ok, puberty blockers to children, digust me. Parents who affirm rather than gently use biological reality, need to think of the future for their children who have been sold a lie. They are contributing to the mental damage. It's all very sad.

"I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute."

I'm trying to catch up and there's a ridiculous amount of stuff I'd like to say, but this is some incredible misogyny on display here!

You've just stated that the patriarchy is more acute, as in worse, for boys than it is girls.

Honestly!

Also you can encourage your child to be whoever they are, but it's sheer insanity to lie to them and tell them they can ignore biological reality. You may as well take them to a very high spot after telling them they can fly, and expect to ignore gravity!

Only this is worse because in non-analogy land, where you ignore biological reality, not only do you harm the child you lied to, you're harming and taking away from all girls and women.

It's all emotional manipulation, side stepping questions, a bit of transphobia ("Women = females and trans women" this is "transphobic" towards trans men, and a lot of misogyny from a self proclaimed feminist.

You still haven't answered my (ridiculous amount of) questions from earlier, but specifically how exactly does a child who can't even talk yet(?!) indicate to you the identify with the female character they have apparently seen? Pointing vaguely isn't cutting it. I'm still incredibly shocked that if this is for real you have lead your boy down this road from before he could talk.

Thanks, Catiette. I'll look and reflect more, it's good to have as wide a set of opinions on all of this as possible.

I suppose so much of this comes down to societal acceptance in a way that is safe for everyone, which is always going to be hard to achieve.

One thing I would say from my experience on this is: please try to see with the eyes of a child. My child has experienced very little transphobia from other children - it's mainly adults that feel the need to put up barriers, insist on telling her she's something other than what she feels etc - which suggests it's a learned behaviour.