Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

[CohensDiamondTeeth]

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

This. Why do parents lie to their children. Tell the truth, that he can live as his version of what he thinks a girl or a woman is, but he could never actually change into one. It's not possible. Tell the truth.

I believe I posted on the other thread, the polling for the UK, done by an independent polling consultancy, that has shown this to be an incorrect perception. Maybe you missed it. The poster who I posted it for certainly couldn't acknowledge or discuss the information, they appeared to not even understand it. But I will post it here again and I and others will be happy to answer any questions about the polling. However, as always, I suggest you drill down into these stats for yourself (most of us have already done this for ourselves).

The polling has also been consistent with other countries such as Canada, Australia, NZ and USA when specific questions are asked.

In short, the views you are encountering here on MN represent the majority within the population.

I will post the UK poll below.

YOUGOV UK TRACKER COMPARISONS

The following is the data from UK trackers from 2018 - 2024 tracking public opinion as part of their series of 'Where does the British public stand on transgender rights'. 2018 results included where they are available.

Here are some of the results that relate to the needs for female people to have single sex provisions:

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 27 [16] 12% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 14%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 25%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 17%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 58%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 25%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024 *this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 29%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 18%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 55%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 28%
Don't know 26 [25] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

There was no surgery question was asked in 2018

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...
Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 26 [25] 19%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 63%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 17%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 23%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 60%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 19%
Don't know 27 [25] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

And finally:

This question was also not asked in 2018

Do you believe that allowing transgender women to use spaces reserved for women, such as women's toilets or changing rooms, does or does not present a genuine risk of harm to women? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Does not present a genuine risk of harm 39 [32] 25%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 14%
Does present a genuine risk of harm 32 [39] 55%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 29 [29] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender^data^2018.pdf

^https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgenderdata2020.pdf^

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/InternalTransgenderIssues^220720finalextraXbreak^FINAL.pdf

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov^-Transgenderstudy^2024.pdf

There are other polls from around the world linked on this thread below:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5445880-statistics-poll-evidence-archive-thread?reply=148913457

There is a large difference between people who believe people who describe themselves as transgender 'living' in their gender and the practical applications. When it comes to actually answering questions that explore what that means, the answers swing towards excluding male people from female single sex provisions.

What Solid is also telling her son, is that the rest of society will maintain the lie.

Exactly. And they won’t.

I think we have crossed posts again, Catiette. I have just read this and I think some of us are on the same page.

@SolidMam I also think that you should start quoting references to support your claims.

It might also stop people identifying your posts as being purely emotional reasoning driven. Or maybe they are only emotionally driven and you are perfectly happy in arguing from that stance. I would suggest it is a weak position but everyone is free to defend their position however they see fit.

Absolutely, it is a revealing post.

I think that this entire discussion on this thread has revolved around the lack of understanding of safeguarding, which includes consent and healthy boundaries for children and women, and the destabilisation of language.

Of course, these are very much intertwined.

Exactly

It was not fair of Solid to do this. Not fair on her own child, because the world will not see them as female and will not be compelled to lie about that, so her child is being set up for a lifetime of frustration and confusion.

Also not fair on other children, particularly girls, who are being asked to diminish their own experience of femaleness to accommodate this boy, to lower their own boundaries to accommodate this boy, and put their own needs behind his. None of that is right.

Do you mean transphobia, or do you just mean pointing out the truth? Children will repeat what they're told, whereas adults have the capacity to work things out for themselves - this "learned behaviour" is just learning the reality of the world.

I haven't led my child anywhere, I tried very hard not to and pushed back as much as I could, without causing her serious psychological upset. I wish you could speak to her, see her in action.

It wasn't just a few pictures, come on I've said that now - I've written how it was process that developed over a year and social transition only once it became untenable for us to do otherwise without her living a lie.

I know, I know - apparently I've set her up to fail, the lie is that she's not a boy etc.

I didn't state that the patriarchy is more acute for anyone - it's a problem for everyone, men included. I presume you're referring to trans women as men in your point - so yes, in general in the UK, I would say that currently the patriarchy is a bigger problem for transwoman than most female women.

You are not being goady, Skippy.

The answer seems to be depend though. We have had a scouting person (leader or parent???) tell us that sometimes, with parents consent, accommodations can be mixed sex in scouts. However, that information is supposedly upfront when there are no children with transgender identities involved.

Certainly in GG, no parent or female child is to be given the full information for them to be able to make the decision for themselves (and a child of a certain age cannot consent in any case). I too wonder if this is also the case in Scouts.

I’m confused. Is your child a biological male or a biological female? I’m talking about what’s on their birth certificate, not how they identify.

Actually, I do question my recollection about the pyjamas... I am sure I heard her say this in an interview though...

No I mean transphobia - othering her because she is a trans girl. Some older boys asked her if she used to be called "x". She was a bit uncertain but told them - and that so far has been that. I wouldn't say, in that example, it's transphobia.

Biological male.

Trans girls are born male, trans boys are born female.

Unless they are intersex, in which case I guess they align with the gender identity that fits them best.

I find it interesting that we don't ever/ often seem to get parents of trans identifying females on these threads telling us that sex based rights are reductive.

It's almost as though they know that their daughters will face discrimination based on their sexed bodies.

Many in this group do seem "wholly committed to sex-based rights" at the expense of minority groups. I could probably have phrased it more accurately.

That's simply a factual question. Why would that be 'transphobic'? You seem to want them to deny your child's past, but that isn't possible, they have their own memories of your child and the name they went by.

Unless they are intersex, in which case I guess they align with the gender identity that fits them best.

People with differences of sexual development are ALL either male or female.

I think it's disgusting that you are appropriating their conditions to prop up your / your son's demands to be in single sex spaces for women and girls.

No - I said there question WASN'T transphobic, agree with you.

The girl who told her "she couldn't play because she's not a real girl" did make a transphobic comment - but they moved past it and they get along fine now.

No. Everyone has sex based rights. No one should have opposite sex rights.

people with DSD have a biological sex so no, they don’t go around identifying with whatever sex they fancy.
Language is so important and in earlier posts I wasn’t entirely clear if you were talking about a girl or a boy and I’m not the only one.
Have you read the Cass review in full and not just sound bites from it? Social transitioning isn’t a benign or kind approach. It’s an active intervention which can have lasting damaging results.

"I didn't state that the patriarchy is more acute for anyone"

No you did. You said this on page 13:

"I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute."

For the rest of your post, you said he indicated that he identified with the female characters you pointed at without explaining how he indicated exactly. How did he indicate exactly, and how did you know these indications whatever they were translated to a pre-verbal child "identifying as the female character". Expand and explain, so far all we are left to assume is that you just pointed at a female character (where? in a book, on tv?) and from that point on your child was treated as the opposite sex than they were.

You said you'd known your child as your daughter for longer than you had known them as a son.

You then said it was process that developed over a year without giving us any information about how that process played out over that time. You said social transition only once it became untenable for us to do otherwise without her living a lie because he was very distressed when people correctly sexed him.

All of this later social transition stuff is contradictory to you saying your child had indicated he wanted to be a girl from before he could talk.

You haven't even given us the age your child was at the various stages. How old was he when he pre-verbally indicated that he identified with a female character? How old was he when you all went with the social transition you talk about? How old is he now?

You still haven't said if you accessed any help, what that help took the form of, or how that played out.

Biological male.

I don't know how to say this in any other way than I have many time in posts for you now and others are saying this too.

Please go and study safeguarding, away from ANY transgender 'inclusive' agencies.

You have just, yet again, shown how little you personally understand of safeguarding. IF you were a Brownie leader, I would be horrified by your lack of safeguarding knowledge.

While adults should have empathy for your child, and most of us have expressed empathy for your child's situation, having empathy and still observing robust safeguarding does not mean simply giving your child what he wants or you have said he needs to be 'happy'.

And if there is no scientific evidence or even any logic that says that your child is female, they are not a 'girl'. And female children have unique needs that include saying 'no' to your male child.

No amount of using destabilised language or appeals to queer theory and post modernist theories about when a person says they are something that they materially are not that society should act as if that person's reality is the universal material reality will change this.