Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

[CohensDiamondTeeth]

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

Just ask them when they feel happiest. When they are most "themselves." If they have anything burning inside them that they want to experiment with - there seems general agreement on this thread that gender roles are quite fluid.

If something doesn't feel right with how and who they are, they will know.

Then - when they feel they can fully express themselves - back them up the hilt in the face of a world that isn't designed for them. Expect bumps. Expect naysayers. Turn up for them.

I'm sure that will feel wishy washy or unscientific in the hard material reality of sex based rights but in this world, I'd much rather have a child be their authentic selves than repress core aspects of who they are. The path will be harder but that's the path.

I look at my child and feel sad and nervous for what's to come. But that's society - that's uncaring or scared or misunderstanding others. I'm sure many of us feel that for our children, especially our daughters in a patriarchal world. As the parent of a trans kid, it's just that but more acute.

So we're still stuck at
"women" are some males and females and
"men" are some males and females.

Still no suggestion of what the difference might be.

I decided to be brave and stand up to one of the many TikTok videos about this. And now I have people arguing with me that the term ‘biological girl’ also includes boys who identify as girls because it is a ‘scientific fact’ that boys who are trans are actually girls. I’m sorry, what? I thought it was accepted that trans people still had their original biological sex but now people are stating that they are biologically the sex they want to be??!

Let's break it down @SolidMam

Women and 'transwomen' must have some shared characteristics that unite them, according to you definition. Characteristics that are unique to these groups that no men share.

What are they?

Just ask them when they feel happiest. When they are most "themselves."

Thank you.
One has said "playing Minecraft" and the other says "making cookies".

So what do I tell them, are they boys or girls?

So presumably if they through they were massively overweight and would be happier in a thinner body, you'd support that even if they were, objectively, starving?

There has been a complete breakdown in scientific literacy.

It is very concerning

If something doesn't feel right with how and who they are, they will know.

One feels like they are too fat, and this doesn't feel right to them. What do I tell them, that they are correct or that society's labels are wrong? How does this affect whether they are a boy or a girl?

(Edit - I didnt see throckmorton's post when I wrote this - it's a genuine worry)

Ahh. Snap!

I'm a bit late to this thread. I'm a Brownie leader who has been a bit fed up with girlguiding for a while. But I have to say I'm very cross with the scouts for their reaction which seems to be "join us we're inclusive" but supreme court judgement aside I can't see how they don't have the same safeguarding issues as Girlguiding. So for all ages but particularly at for teenage members what happens if a trans member goes on camp. Which biological gender tent do they sleep in, can parents be consulted? Girlguiding had a lot of criticism for their handling of this issue but I can't see how Scouting doesn't have exactly the same safeguarding problem.

This is very true.

If sex based rights are reductive, then GG should be completely mixed sex and available to all children.

If something doesn't feel right with how and who they are, they will know.

What? What does this even mean? They are who they are, and they are how they are.

Presumably with the new high court ruling they would have to sleep in the tent with others of their biological sex.

You nailed it.

@SolidMam

Solidmam: Unless you are wholly committed to sex-based rights, which are incredibly outdated and reductive.

Solidmam: ...especially our daughters in a patriarchal world.

Enough with the utterly bizarre "sex-based rights are obsolete" - the above shows that even you don't mean that (thank goodness, as I was about to wonder if you were trolling us, and I found that claim utterly, utterly offensive - imagine telling Black or disabled or gay people the same!)

Please acknowledge that you recognise the need for sex-based rights, but want to re-name and muddy them to include males so as to accommodate your son and his ilk.

If you can't acknowledge this, please tell me how they're obsolete in the light of my post about females being 70% more likely to be significantly injured in car accidents (and, I think, almost 50% more likely to die) because car design predominantly ignores females in favour of males.

If you can acknowledge this, please tell me the stats and facts behind your confident decision to dilute campaigns to save tens of thousands of female lives in support of trans-identifying males. They must be pretty heavy stuff.

I’ve just read Ashley James statement on instagram about resigning from Girlguiding (think she’s an ambassador) and I’m staggered by the number of people agreeing with her that it’s outrageous 🤦‍♀️

It's not scientific fact. That's effectively a rhetorical ploy drawing on things like differences of sexual development, hormonal and cosmetic treatments and cynical definitions of what sex actually is. They can waffle on about it for pages - and "they" includes, to be fair, a minority - to my understanding - of evolutionary biologists. But so what? There are a minority of humans that have been abducted by aliens, and a minority of doctors who swear off vaccines - praise be for human variety and interest. But there is also a consensus on these things. In any case, for this one, your own knowledge that you were born of a female and a male, and so too was every. single. other. human on the planet, is, frankly, all that you need here.

Minecraft is a boy and cookies is a girl. I mean, it's obvious, innit?

No they don't have the same problem, because as a mixed sex group, they have clear protocols around how mixed sex interaction should be handled.

The problem for GG is that they were pretending men can be women, so they aren't putting those proper protocols in place.

Also, two new points that I'm genuinely interested in.

1. Where do intersex people fit in, in the world of sex-based rights?

1. The understanding of 'feminism' on this thread seems to echo many of the characteristics of the patriarchy - ie hierarchical, protectionist and traditional understandings or gender. I know many here believe same sex spaces matter more than anything else but does anyone else see the hypocrisy inherent in taking that "patriarchal feminist" position?

“I'd much rather have a child be their authentic selves than repress core aspects of who they are.”

This is incoherent though. Because your child is not a girl because they are not a female child. Therefore they are not being ‘authentic’ in describing themselves as a girl.

This misuse of ‘authentic self’ has been a gender identity trope for a while. It also renders the word ‘authentic’ as meaningless because it has had the very opposite meaning attributed to the word.

But perhaps you should be speaking to Bayswater support group because in reading all your posts, you have been repeating activist trope which is meaningless and using their tactics all along. Perhaps you need an alternative source of support.

https://www.bayswatersupport.org.uk

Or maybe, the minority are here on Mumsnet?

People with Differences of Sexual Development are either male or female. How dare you try to suggest they are other just to further your argument?!

People with DSDs are either male or female.

Single sex spaces matter where they matter. They dont matter where they dont matter.

Why does your son need to join the girl guides and not the scouts?

instagram is public so attracts virtue signalling.
Mumsnet is anonymous so attracts honesty.