Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

[CohensDiamondTeeth]

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

You have bullied me and personally attacked me on this thread. I am rather surprised that you feel that your bullying has been merely ‘debate’.

This is very much where words having commonly understand meanings is important for communication.

The words-issue and spaces-issue do parallel each other. Words-wise, to me it comes down to this.

Every group is deserving of their own words. I find the concept of transwoman deeply uncomfortable, but don't deny them this. Equally, I hope they can do me the courtesy of permitting me "woman".

If I'm forced to argue this, I have one helluva strong case in the form of, oh, I dunno, just several millennia of murderous oppression and the current appalling abuses of this demographic's rights. In both scale and creative cruelty, it's frankly hard to beat.

But I shouldn't have to argue it. It should be enough, quite simply, to say that I And Others Want It, and that What We Want is no less valid than What You Want.

We can't both have everything, certainly. And neither of us will be entirely happy.

But only one side in this debate is seeking to deny the other anything at all.

That alone is enough to tell me I'm not the Baddie in this.

Words wise we have seen just how unworkable it is to have group of people demand that the rest of society use the group’s chosen language, which has reallocated meanings of words used by female people to describe themselves in law.

On this thread alone we have also seen the tactics used, including gaslighting about whether something is a ‘request’ when it has been in action a ‘demand’. Complete with personal attack for non-compliance. Another tactic is that of dismissal of needing sex based rights, while hypocritically demanding those rights to be accessible to the opposite sex.

Language is vital to clear communication. Let’s call it what it is. I think it can be described as an act of misogynistic abuse to change the meaning of the words used in law to protect female people as a unique group.

I quite like J K Rowlings tweet on the GG policy change. It was in answer to someone’s tweet asking ‘who does it help?’ (Referring to excluding male children from GG)

“Answer: it helps girls. It tells girls they have the right to things of their own. It tells girls they have the right to say 'no'. It reminds girls that the desires of boys do not supersede their feelings, their rights, their discomfort or their safety.”

https://x.com/jkrowling/status/1996339070335930696?s=46

This seems very apt for this thread with the clarification that of course, JK Rowling uses the word ‘girl’ to mean only female children.

Because it also seems that this clarification is needed. Hence why some of us feel forced to resort to using the immediately clear language of ‘female children’.

Which then leads to bullying behaviour by those who demand language be changed to suit them. That behaviour of being mischaracterised as being not only irrational, closed minded etc. but being obsessed with people’s sex organs for using clear and accurate language.

Because this is the ramification of using clear language that relates directly to the relevant protected characteristic used to allow for legitimate discrimination. To have the word sex twisted to being referred to as ‘sex organs’ . A particularly noticable tactic in a discussion about children.

Leading back to the need to clarify the language so there can be no mistake as to what JK Rowling means when she refers to ‘girls’.

We will have to disagree on whether you have failed him or not. You have brought him up to believe he is entitled to access spaces reserved for women and girls on the basis of the fact that he waved at some pictures before he could speak. You have given him a sense of entitlement based on the way you have raised him. Rather than tell him there was no wrong way for him to be (as a boy) you have told him that his behaviours meet the sterotypes of girl gender (whatever that is) and he therefore is entitled to be treated as a female person. You have set him up to fail as this is something he can never be.

If I am wrong and this has nothing to do with him preferring stereotypically girly things then please explain as I can't see what else 'girl gender' can possibly be.

I have a daughter who does not confirm with female stereotypes. She therefore has nothing in common with your son (other that them both being human and both being gender (sex stereotype ) non- conforming) . She has conversely got something significant (her sex) in common with every other female child on the planet what ever her likes or dislikes/ personality.

You have got this massively wrong.

My DD is a Rainbow and, to be honest, this has made me very sad because I've seen so many leaders saying they'll quit over this and lots of the girls will move to Scouts etc

My DD loves Rainbows. Her school year is very boy heavy and you only need to stand in the playground to see how a lot of the boys push their way in, take charge, get all the attention etc Rainbows was the place where my shy DD got attention and got to thrive and got to do all the things she likes to do, crafts, songs, plays etc I can't help but worry this is going to be the slow end to GGs and, thus, ending the ONE organisation which girls had to themselves.

I can honestly see this massively backfiring and ruining something which was really important to thousands and thousands of girls.

the quiet majority stay quiet on social media because transactivists are aggressive. So the “many leaders”you’ve seen don’t represent the entire movement.

and i’ve seen one “leader” pop up on facebook who I know personally and as far as I’m aware they’ve never been involved in guiding 🤔

GG had already ruined it for thousands of girls. They let those pushing, attention seeking boys into Guides without telling the girls or their parents. Now girls whose parents wouldn't send them to the mixed-sex-by-stealth version of Guides will be able to join.

And why would lots of girls who chose a single sex organisation now move to Scouts, a mixed sex organisation, because the single sex organisation will actually be single sex? That makes no sense, extremely few parents sent their girls to Guides because they wanted their daughters to be in a mixed sex organisation pretending to be a single sex one.

I think you will find the outpourings are performative. If those people wanted to join scouts, they will have joined Scouts instead of GG.

I don’t believe that many leaders will have become leaders specifically becasuse male children had been included unless they were directly utilising GG for their own male children as we have seen in this thread. Those leaders who had male children there most probably will leave. And considering the appalling lack of understanding of safeguarding those leaders fully supported, maybe that will result in stronger safeguarding.

I guess, as an aside, if leaders are saying they will leave because of this decision, they are actively supporting poor safeguarding practices. That would be a concern for me.

Let her use them if she wants to. We all know that this is a quasi religious belief based on sex stereotypes. But it would be useful for her to explain what she thinks links women and “trans women”.

Such a perfect response.

In our area, there are waiting lists for all GG groups. We have had posts over the past few years since this policy had become known and since the Sully incident of parents saying they would not be sending their girls to GG.

I wonder if there really will be noticeably lower numbers after a year or so? In our area, there will be no decreases as I know some of the leaders were very careful about this and they will now be breathing a sigh of relief because it all got simpler in some ways now.

@SolidMam i appreciate you’re trying to do what’s best for your child. It can’t be easy navigating this route. Parenting is hard at the best if times!

However, I do take issue that the term woman (and less do men) should take a wider meaning. I’ve seen both gynae and breast cancer doctors, and for the record are happy to be examined by both sexes. However, some women, for cultural or personal reasons only want to undress in front of women. If the word ‘women’ looses its sex-based meaning, then you may find yourself in front if a six foot five, bearded, man, and you’d have no recourse. So we need to retain the word women (and b- locks to the term ‘cis’)

I agree with your last bit. It does make it a lot simpler and people are attracted to guiding because they want to simply help girls, and feel
more comfortable doing so.

Helle's right.
Senior people in GG relentlessly bullied anyone speaking out about safeguarding, the rights of girls etc. Given that's still the attitude (judging by yesterday's sad face demo) GG is still an unsafe place to be girl / women centred so women are going to keep silent.
Hopefully those unable to centre girls in the GG will head off for other places and the GG can return to their roots and focus on supporting / empowering girls.

Another point to remember here is that we have direct knowledge of male doctors who use the term ‘female’ for themselves.

Remember Upton said he would present himself if a woman or girl asked for a female doctor. And would expect that woman or girl to say ‘no, someone else please’ before he would leave.

This is not respect. And this is not consent being respected.

This is what happens when language is twisted to suit the individual and not the collective society.

When I was volunteering, the leader I volunteered for told us that all the local leaders were very very careful about this. They all knew they couldn’t speak out but none of them supported this.

For anyone that wishes to object to the decision there is a petition available (apologies if this has already been shared).

https://www.change.org/p/allow-transgender-women-and-girls-back-into-girlguiding-uk

You do understand that this petition is asking them to break the law?

it’s the law. You can do as many petitions as you like, but you can’t overturn a supreme court clarification of the actual law of the land.

I’d be embarrassed to have posted that. 😬

stupid is as stupid does.

God, do i hate that flag.

So it seems