Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

[CohensDiamondTeeth]

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

But if people refuse to see trans girls and women as such then it'll be long road, sadly.

Genuinely - when you (general "you") refuse to explain what you even mean by "women" in this sentence, do you think that is helping understanding, or hindering it?

It's clear you don't mean "female people" when you say "women". But do you mean simply "people" or "people who (xyz)"...?

If you want acceptance you need to be able to articulate what it is you want people to accept.

no according to you a woman can be female or male. So that won’t work. So you’ll need another word for an adult human female won’t you?

If they don't exist, they seem to be provoking a lot of discussion here! Society has been built around lots of things apart from sex - and the gender roles women and men play are not fixed.

And I don't want to dismantle society but I do hope for change, yes.

I think the things that may not exist or resist definition typically provoke the most discussion. Dark matter, religion, ghosts, gender...!

But you believed your son was a girl because he waved vaguely at pictures of women? How did he know they were women and not gender non conforming men? Or non binary people?

No I don't think so, I think woman covers it. The word may no longer be thought of as having an exclusive, sex-based meaning - but in most cases an adult human female would be a woman.

Unless they are a trans man/non binary/gender non conforming.

No. So if an adult human female is a woman, that automatically excludes all males then right? I know you’re desperately trying to reshape the world so your son can never realise you lied to him but no. No male can be a woman.

But, Solid, you simultaneously agree that these are internal, subjective identities - gender - and yet expect people to "see" them instantly and non-judgementally, to the extent that sex-based descriptors become obsolete.

I don't want to be facetious - honestly, I'm so bemused it's almost a genuine question! ...Does this future utopia come with telepathy?! Or such deep-seated, penetrating empathy that there's instant mutual understanding of each others' respective identities?

Or (facetious again, but also genuinely confused), one hell of a lot of pronoun-exchanging and memorising in every imaginable context, to a degree that stops anything getting done?

Exactly, so you are saying that female does not equal 'woman' in your view , right? Because a man could be male or female, and a woman could be male or female.

I did ask earlier today whether, and how, you differentiate "man" and "woman" and I'm getting the impression you would use the words interchangeably because there's no difference in your eyes?

I'm genuinely trying to grasp your meaning.

So when someone IDs as a woman, you're saying they ID as a person of either sex. (But possibly with some other criteria - you don't say).

Sorry, I've just seen this. I think I answered it in other threads - but I have a wider definition of "women" than most people on this thread, it seems.

In the quote you took issue with, I think I could have been clearer:

"But if people refuse to see trans girls and TRANS women as such then it'll be long road, sadly"

It was a wider point about affirming trans people in their preferred genders and standing in solidarity with them.

The criteria is what pictures you waved at as a baby…..

but I have a wider definition of "women" than most people on this thread, it seems.

Could you just actually say what it is then rather than have us all guessing? I'm guessing for it to be wider than "any female" it has to be "any human", but that raises the question in my previous post - a man is also "any human" so both words mean the same thing (to you).

Nope sorry. Too busy standing in solidarity with women fighting to retain their single sex spaces and minimising the harm caused by the evil ideology of the genderborg

Female usually equals "woman" because most people aren't born in opposition to their gender.

If they are a transwoman, I believe they are also a woman.

I wouldn't be confused about whether most people are men or women or use terms interchangeably. And I would try not to assume a person's gender in any case anyway, especially if I wasn't sure what it was (ie: how they identify).

Hope that's clearer?

Female usually equals "woman" because most people aren't born in opposition to their gender.
If they are a transwoman, I believe they are also a woman.

Ok, so I'm trying to work this through.

Where you use the word "woman" at the end there, you meant "female"?

Or something else?

What makes yours "wider" and ours "narrower"?

Ours

Unquestioningly encompasses 51% of the world's population. Includes transmen and women with DSDs; lesbian, bi- and straight; pre-menopausal and post-menopausal, mothers and child-free, and the youngest girls (as this is how woman functions in the Equality Act) to the oldest record-holders; the joyfully gender non-conforming right through to the svelte covergirl; weightlifters and models; business leaders and cleaners...

Yours

Please input data... 😊

No it’s not. So you’re saying women can’t have a word to describe themselves that doesn’t include males in your opinion? I thought you were a feminist? So if we can’t have woman to describe an adult human female, what word can we use? You’ve just said that woman is not an adult human female. What do adult human females and males with a trans identity have in common that make then both women? And please don’t use tropes such as feelings or gendered, oppressive outdated stereotypes.

How can you be born in opposition to your gender? Why would you expect anyone to conform with a gender stereotype?

@SolidMam my mum says she can’t remember me waving at any pictures when I was a baby. How do I know if I’m a woman? I mean im an adult human female but according to you, that’s not what a woman is. So how do I know?

And I would try not to assume a person's gender in any case anyway, especially if I wasn't sure what it was (ie: how they identify).

Tough call, when you see this as an ethical imperative while witnessing three grown men follow a 9-year-old girl down the long, winding stairs to the women's toilets...

100% agree.

You don’t have to agree with the recent law change on abortion to recognise that it was prompted by what happened during the pandemic when access to abortions and female specific healthcare was made more difficult.

As you say, the loss of these rights doesn’t have to be intentional. It can just be an unintended consequence.

I mean, seriously Solid - as a prelude to signing off far too late at night again! - I really appreciate your unusual engagement on this, especially given you're outnumbered and some of this may be difficult to read as a trans-mum. But I really do feel that we're not nearly ready for your vision of a gender-defined world. I mean, technically, I don't think we'll ever be ready - 1) because humans are a sexually dimorphic species and women will always be at a physical disadvantage to men, and 2) because I don't subscribe to gender identity or ideology. Trying to acknowledge that your vision reflects your love for your son/daughter, though, I both admire you for holding on to and trying to defend it... and worry that it leaves you and him/her vulnerable. Harking on, but I really, really do recommend reading around this all some more (not least as it's fascinating). I'll plug Invisible Women once more in particular, as an unforgettable study of how the male default has shaped our world, and naming women is necessary to redressing that balance. (PS I'm not Caroline Criado Perez, I promise, just a bit of a fan!)

So wide a definition you’ve essentially rendered the word meaningless.

You’re ‘affirming’ a fantasy, as if pretending something is a reality is enough to make it so. Your son is no more a girl than Rachel Dolezal is a black woman, or Buffy St Marie an indigenous American.

Yes.

Nothing quite like being repeatedly told you are cruel, and being gaslighted that a demand made with such judgements is merely a request is just that- bullying behaviour.

So, we have had yet another circular discussion about how the words needed to protect female people with law and policy are being rendered meaningless and unfit for purpose. Because a group of people have decided that someone’s philosophical brief about themselves (that does not reflect material reality) can be used to categorise them as being legally able to apply the words of the opposite sex to themselves.

Remember, in doing so, that group of people not only then claim the rights that they should rightly have access to as male people but also additional privileges in having more rights than anyone else.

The way this works can be explained by access to sex based provisions. A male person who declares that they are female not only has access to the provision for male people (even if they reject this provision, they rightfully have access to it), they also demand to have access to the provision for female people. This would then give this group the privilege to being able to access all provisions while the rest of the population is restricted to only those based on their sex.

This is discriminatory.