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Original poster

To think there is a definite surge in annoyance towards the disabled?

1000 replies

WarySwan · 03/12/2025 06:32

I have seen it in real life. Not just social media forums and news outlets where every other post seems to be about 'free money this for disabled' and 'free cars'.

My 2 children have autism. They get highest rate DLA. About £800 a month. We get respite care funded that costs the tax payer about £700 a month.

Just had an extension on our new build house, housing association, brand new bedroom and ensuite installed. Free of charge through the council.

Motability 7 seater car. 25 plate.

People seem to just see this and see the money. They do not see the costs that are present because of disability. The amount of time and resources it takes to keep 2 profoundly children at home.

They do not see that my children will need 24/7 care for life. 2-1 support in public. The constant cleaning and caring. Waking up at the crack of dawn, years on end. Cleaning smearing and endless washing. Endless marks on your body from a child who doesn't get that taking a chunk out of you will hurt that much and scar

Watching your eldest almost die as he can't speak a word or use a communication device. Meaning appendicitis went undetected until he was almost dying. The constant battle of keeping a cannula in his arm with hospital staff just not getting why a play therapist does not bloody cut it and he needs constant supervision that I cannot possibly do 24/7 without moving from the bedside. The weeks spend in recovery because of this.

If we do not or cannot provide this care, residential placements are about £40,000+ per month. Yes. Per month. It is eye watering in cost. That won't change anytime soon because social care is beyond shot to bits.

My children deserve the best life possible. And a dignified society should surely want to ensure this happens? Children who are not disabled and their parents have options. They have chances and doorways. Mine will never work. Never have a marriage or children, they won't even be able to cook a basic meal.

There is no overtime or upskilling for me. No situation where they fly the nest and I can focus on my career again. Unless they become some dangerous through no fault of their own that a 40k plus a month placement goes ahead as the alternative means I could die or be seriously injured, and that would mean they'd be at risk if I am literally unconscious on the floor.

They still deserve dignity and compassion. The chance of a good life. They are very happy currently. Good routines that are followed to a T. Safe at home because I have the resources to do it.

Care placement does not save money. Unfortunately. It would cost over ten times what I get in benefits.

I have seen so many mentions of people saying those on benefits should have no savings at all. Nothing. Really? You think my life isn't hard enough? You think I shouldn't be allowed a small nest of savings too?

When I finally drop down from caring, I will have next to no pension. After spending a lifetime ensuring the state doesn't have to take full responsibility for 2 adult men that will mean at least 4 paid members of staff are present at all times.

I am not just talking about MN. It is everywhere. Even 'funny' reels on Instagram targeted about how the disabled get this and that. How they should all drive a basic tiny car that has something written in bold to make sure everyone knows its a free car, as if they're really disabled, they'll use. That'll stop the chancers eh!

This is NOT about criticism towards PIP and DLA for things people deem questionable... even though they almost certainly dont have all the facts. This is about the blatant and not hidden disgust and begrudge of help to those with lifelong and profound disability

PEOPLE keep saying in black and white, no room for confusion in their words, that the disabled get too much. That it isn't fair.

I suppose this thread will get deleted. But a lot of views seem to be going unchallenged about the disabled that wouldn't be allowed if it was about something else that's suppose to be a protected characteristic. Seems to have quite a few comparisons with a certain country in Europe 80 or so years ago. When the hatred and deceit was being thrown around and brain washing people before not many years later, the public became okay with euthanasia of them.

Hell, I am sure we are already there for some. As I have seen with my own eyes, people commenting on MN and the likes of social media where their bloody name and pictures of themselves and their work can be traced, that euthanasia could be an option, ideally.

OP posts:
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CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 03/12/2025 16:29

Robin2025 · 03/12/2025 16:16

Of course, you're just asking questions. 🙄

I personally think we shouldn't leave disabled people to starve because it's morally abhorrent, horrifically cruel, because every human being has intrinsic value and worth, and because if we become the kind of society that disposes of people because they are not economically useful to us, then that irrevocably diminishes us. But as you have said that you only want arguments that do not involve morality, I'll also give you the argument I made before. Then I think I'm going to have to hide this thread, it's making me lose whatever faith in humanity I still had.

With AI and automation exploding, most of the jobs we all do will very likely become obsolete in the near future. There won’t be anywhere near enough work left for the number of humans alive. The obscenely wealthy have no need to or particular interest in keeping the rest of us housed/fed/alive once we’re no longer needed for their profits.
Their only restraint would be the calculation that mass starvation or outright culling of the “non-productive” might provoke revolt among those still deemed useful. Once enough people like you declare that you are perfectly comfortable with the elimination of anyone who fails an economic utility test, you remove that final inhibition. You have just given them explicit public permission to apply the same criterion to whoever they choose, whenever it becomes convenient.
Once the principle is established that human life possesses worth only insofar as it generates profit, that individuals have no intrinsic dignity and are just disposable economic units, you would have to be delusional to imagine that standard will permanently exempt you. Even before that, you, or someone you care about, can become disabled tomorrow. A single illness or accident is all it takes.
So, if nothing else, naked self-interest should make you oppose that idea.

Edited
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Thank you

I'm not sure i agree totally with your naked self-interest argument but it's got a lot going for it as a logical rationale.

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 16:31

LemaxObsessive · 03/12/2025 16:02

You really shouldn’t be volunteering at that type of charity with a judgmental and hateful attitude like you’re displaying on this thread. As someone with a mostly hidden disability (early Parkinson’s) if I approached a mental health charity and was presented with someone who was clearly trying to decide if I was ‘genuine’ or not, I’d be heartbroken. That could send somebody over the edge. They need people with compassion who don’t judge.

Show quote history

Do you think that there are not people who try and make false claims?

Or do you think it should just be ignored - in fact, not "noticed", even if they are open about it?

FiatLuxAdAstra · 03/12/2025 16:32

Legobricksinatub · 03/12/2025 16:22

How much money have they devoted to finding fraud? If you don’t look you don’t find but it costs money to look.

Show quote history

in the last 2 years DWP have hired an extra 7,500 fraud investigators almost tripling the total number of investigators from 3,500 to 11,000.
They have invested an extra £70m into data analytics.

not sure what their baseline budget is, but 11,000 fraud investigators would cost at least £500m to employ when you consider salary costs, NICs, civil service pension and so on.

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 16:33

FiatLuxAdAstra · 03/12/2025 16:05

Yes all those school kids with air pollution caused asthma and their need to carry inhalers paid for by the NHS in their school bags.

The rate of disabilities cannot be used as a proxy for people “taking from the pot”

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No, I don't really think the kids with inhalers are causing resentment.

Do you seriously think they are?

Youdontseehow · 03/12/2025 16:35

WarySwan · 03/12/2025 06:46

No, you can see quite clearly if you met my DC for about a minute. You'd probably want to leave and wonder how the bloody hell anyone can cope. Because it's often what I'm told, by people with very nice intentions. You see them sort of get this shock wave and they can't help but say how they dont know how I do it, that they couldn't, etc etc

Likewise, a good friend who I met has an extension. A 'nice car that she wheels her child out of on oxygen and posture support. You can visibly see both of us providing a level of constant care and support that would make you relieved it isn't you...

Again, it is a discussion worth having but I am not talking about those with invisible disabilities and the like. Mine are autistic with ADHD. But it isn't invisible. You can see by looking for about 10 seconds. Not just the disability pram or wheelchair. Or level of restraint in public. Even their posture is different and you can just tell. Even through photos

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I hear you @WarySwan . It must be so so very challenging to care for your DC and have some semblance of “a life” for you too.

I think we can all understand the level of care needed for DC like your own.

But nowadays, every second person has autism and ADHD - influencers and z list celebrities like Mrs Hinch and Christine McGuiness talking about their ADHD and autistic children. I also see it in real life.

Of course there are levels of impairment with all illnesses/and conditions but relentless reels and news stories about people getting more in benefits than others who work full time does influence the narrative.

We were on a “holiday of a lifetime” type holiday recently which cost £££s - there was a couple on it who were quite happy to tell everyone how their benefits paid for it. Now I’m not saying that you can’t go on holiday if you don’t work, but these people’s “conditions” were ADHD, anxiety and a “sore back” which apparently meant they sometimes couldn’t get out of bed in the morning.

Yet there they were for every quiz, show, deck/pool games and the “bad back” guy could even do the salsa classes.

So unless you are some sort of sociopath/nutter, I think most people are mindful and accepting of the help disabled DC need but are fed up to the back teeth of those that abuse the system and take the piss.

StartingFreshFor2026 · 03/12/2025 16:36

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 03/12/2025 16:29

Thank you

I'm not sure i agree totally with your naked self-interest argument but it's got a lot going for it as a logical rationale.

Show quote history

So glad you've decided this, Queen of Ethics. We're all so grateful.

SleeplessInWherever · 03/12/2025 16:37

MissyMooPoo2 · 03/12/2025 16:29

To put this more simply, it seems people would like to pick and choose their morals, depending on what suits them best at the time.

Show quote history

I think most people have the “let’s not euthanise children” moral… don’t they?

Original poster
WarySwan · 03/12/2025 16:37

yellowspanner · 03/12/2025 14:29

But why does it have to be. 7 seater with a 25 plate. I'd love to be able to afford that.

It is a 7 seater because my children cannot sit next to each other without extreme distress and one of them assaults the other if strapped in next to him in a close space. IF one sat at the front, which their disability aids dont allow, I'd be at risk of killing everyone in my car and whoever else comes into contact with us in a crash, as they'd ready over to the wheel or hand break, etc etc

It is a new car because all motability cars are new cars and then sold on at auction after 3ish years.

OP posts:
StartingFreshFor2026 · 03/12/2025 16:38

SleeplessInWherever · 03/12/2025 16:37

I think most people have the “let’s not euthanise children” moral… don’t they?

Show quote history

Apparently not because the question seems to need to be asked over and over again.

GoOnJudgeme · 03/12/2025 16:39

SleeplessInWherever · 03/12/2025 16:37

I think most people have the “let’s not euthanise children” moral… don’t they?

Show quote history

You’d hope so but there seem to be a few on this thread alone who perhaps think it’s a valid option sadly.

FiatLuxAdAstra · 03/12/2025 16:41

MaloryJones · 03/12/2025 15:37

I was at school the same decades as You.

I think, in hindsight, they were there but not diagnosed.
Eg . I was friends with a Man, known locally by all and sundry, who was the nicest, sweetest chap I had known. Until he turned Angry.
However, and again in hindsight, I am pretty sure that He had some kind of ND about Him . He was though, in 1982, in his mid 30s so no diagnosis as a child so I am assuming here.

Show quote history

This is the truth. Especially for girls. I was over 40 when I was diagnosed with AuDHD.

Boomer55 · 03/12/2025 16:42

yellowspanner · 03/12/2025 14:29

But why does it have to be. 7 seater with a 25 plate. I'd love to be able to afford that.

Anyone whacking down deposit money for a lease car like that needs a car like that.

It could be because they have kids/grandkids, or it could be because they need a large boot/hatchback facility to cart scooters, equipment etc around. 🤷‍♀️

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 16:42

FiatLuxAdAstra · 03/12/2025 16:32

in the last 2 years DWP have hired an extra 7,500 fraud investigators almost tripling the total number of investigators from 3,500 to 11,000.
They have invested an extra £70m into data analytics.

not sure what their baseline budget is, but 11,000 fraud investigators would cost at least £500m to employ when you consider salary costs, NICs, civil service pension and so on.

Show quote history

The thing is, if people are successful at getting a benefit, i'ts not going to be counted as fraud, is it?

So if there is a huge increase of bogus claims, because people are lying to be diagnosed, or because they are honest but there is a problem with the diagnostic system, that won't in any way be reflected in the statistics you produced.

Stats like that are not useful for what you are trying to use them for.

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 03/12/2025 16:42

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 16:26

Certainly in the West our ideas about the intrinsic value of human life come from Christianity. Which is why it has historically opposed abortion, infanticide, suicide, euthanasia, and so on. That view is based on the way Christianity sees humans as being, at their core, part of the divine life. Or God being in all humans might be a simpler way to put it.

There are other belief systems that have that set of values, but - and this is something many people in our culture don't really understand - many cultures have not believed these things. And therefore have supported things like suicide, euthanasia, infanticide, and all the rest. These have been quite common human behaviours, supported by the societies they occur in, and in many cases institutionalised.

People are very naive if they think it is impossible we could return to those ways of thinking.

Most of those come down to the idea that some human lives are not worth living, or require too many resources from the community, or only count as "people" after the community or parent takes responsibility for them.

We have undoubtedly seen significant challenges to some of the Christian ideas about the intrinsic value of all human lives within the 20th century, legally and socially. We took a step back from those after WWII< but I think the memory of that has faded significantly. There are countries in the west now where infanticide of disabled infants is allowed, and I will be surprised if that doesn't happen in my own country within the next 15 years or so.

We are in a period of social flux on these questions where many people have the residual feeling that we should value all human lives, while simultaneously wanting to put limits on what counts as a worthwhile human life, or one that counts. Where this will go is difficult to predict, social change is often not linear, though I am fairly pessimistic myself. The value of human life needs to be rooted in a deep belief system, and I'm not sure what that is for most people now.

Show quote history

Thanks

I can understand that god-related "all life is precious and belongs to God" argument. I dont particularly agree with it but its inherently consistent.

Where i struggle is the inconsistencies we have generated in our modern secular world where some killing is perfectly acceptable (abortions and euthanasia ) and other is not

kornwall · 03/12/2025 16:43

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 16:26

Certainly in the West our ideas about the intrinsic value of human life come from Christianity. Which is why it has historically opposed abortion, infanticide, suicide, euthanasia, and so on. That view is based on the way Christianity sees humans as being, at their core, part of the divine life. Or God being in all humans might be a simpler way to put it.

There are other belief systems that have that set of values, but - and this is something many people in our culture don't really understand - many cultures have not believed these things. And therefore have supported things like suicide, euthanasia, infanticide, and all the rest. These have been quite common human behaviours, supported by the societies they occur in, and in many cases institutionalised.

People are very naive if they think it is impossible we could return to those ways of thinking.

Most of those come down to the idea that some human lives are not worth living, or require too many resources from the community, or only count as "people" after the community or parent takes responsibility for them.

We have undoubtedly seen significant challenges to some of the Christian ideas about the intrinsic value of all human lives within the 20th century, legally and socially. We took a step back from those after WWII< but I think the memory of that has faded significantly. There are countries in the west now where infanticide of disabled infants is allowed, and I will be surprised if that doesn't happen in my own country within the next 15 years or so.

We are in a period of social flux on these questions where many people have the residual feeling that we should value all human lives, while simultaneously wanting to put limits on what counts as a worthwhile human life, or one that counts. Where this will go is difficult to predict, social change is often not linear, though I am fairly pessimistic myself. The value of human life needs to be rooted in a deep belief system, and I'm not sure what that is for most people now.

Show quote history

I think this is the sort of post @CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone was looking to engage with, perhaps they didn't choose the right thread to pose their questions on, but they are reasonable questions to ask people to engage with and a number of posters have shown that it is possible to engage on a philosophical level without a kneejerk 'nazis, eugenics, fascist' being the default response that so many have grasped for

Bromptotoo · 03/12/2025 16:46

It's a product of toxic politics SM and MSM pandering to the ploiticis.

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 16:46

SleeplessInWherever · 03/12/2025 16:37

I think most people have the “let’s not euthanise children” moral… don’t they?

Show quote history

Maybe. Less than there used to be, I think.

There have historically been a great many societies that euthanized disabled infants.

We seem to be moving towards an idea that lives with a lot of suffering are not worth living. If it becomes accepted for infants, which seems very possible, I'd expect it to move to older children as well over time.

Sillysaussicon · 03/12/2025 16:47

I couldn't agree more fully with what you write so eloquently. I wish families could be given a louder voice and platform to challenge the deep injustices in our society. The kicker is that the world also dismisses the views of mothers, and you are so often their only voice. The healthcare system, social care and education system are all also fucked, so those that should be advocating for you can't in any meaningful capacity.

FiatLuxAdAstra · 03/12/2025 16:47

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 16:42

The thing is, if people are successful at getting a benefit, i'ts not going to be counted as fraud, is it?

So if there is a huge increase of bogus claims, because people are lying to be diagnosed, or because they are honest but there is a problem with the diagnostic system, that won't in any way be reflected in the statistics you produced.

Stats like that are not useful for what you are trying to use them for.

Show quote history

If they are successful at claiming, get the money in their bank account and then are later found to have done so fraudulently then yes it is counted as fraud.

Applying and being rejected isn’t fraud.

I don’t know what you mean. Someone asked whether DWP was even looking for fraud, saying if you don’t look for it you won’t find any. My post was intended to give what I know about the 11,000 DWP fraud investigators that are looking for fraud every day. Also the £70m invested into advanced data analytics which are doing things like identifying people who have moved abroad but still claim child benefit, or people who have died but no one told DWP so their spouse is still getting their PIP money…

Identifying bogus claims is not dependent on anonymous tip offs from concerned members of the public.

TomCatTumbler · 03/12/2025 16:48

x2boys · 03/12/2025 07:27

They won't be getting disability benefits.

Show quote history

Why won’t they? Lots of that profile do get PIP - especially if have DLA as a child due to ADHd or ASD or anxiety. Many get DLa and go to university with PIP.

Legobricksinatub · 03/12/2025 16:51

FiatLuxAdAstra · 03/12/2025 16:32

in the last 2 years DWP have hired an extra 7,500 fraud investigators almost tripling the total number of investigators from 3,500 to 11,000.
They have invested an extra £70m into data analytics.

not sure what their baseline budget is, but 11,000 fraud investigators would cost at least £500m to employ when you consider salary costs, NICs, civil service pension and so on.

Show quote history

To investigate about 70 million people plus businesses and a total DWP expenditure of £276 billion.

SleeplessInWherever · 03/12/2025 16:53

CanSeeClearlyNowTheRainHasGone · 03/12/2025 16:42

Thanks

I can understand that god-related "all life is precious and belongs to God" argument. I dont particularly agree with it but its inherently consistent.

Where i struggle is the inconsistencies we have generated in our modern secular world where some killing is perfectly acceptable (abortions and euthanasia ) and other is not

Show quote history

Can you give us logical explanation for why it would be acceptable?

Say there’s a 9 year old. Here are the facts:

  • Doubly incontinent
  • Very limited communication
  • Can present violent behaviours
  • Cognitive delay - circa 2.5 y/o, at 9 y/o.
  • Smears
  • Very limited diet
  • Sleep issues meaning needs support routinely for hours during the night
  • Will never live independently, or work

More facts:

  • Makes progress at school
  • Is able to brush own teeth
  • Can express remorse
  • Has learned 50+ new words in last 3 years
  • Can express hunger and thirst
  • Has hobbies, and preferred activities
  • Plays with peers (in specific ways)

When we look at quality of life, does needing support with toileting override progress in other areas?

Does the fact he can be violent override the joy he gets from a swing?

Or is it just a case of “will the person be economically productive”?

Curious where we’d put the “line.”

kornwall · 03/12/2025 16:53

TempestTost · 03/12/2025 16:46

Maybe. Less than there used to be, I think.

There have historically been a great many societies that euthanized disabled infants.

We seem to be moving towards an idea that lives with a lot of suffering are not worth living. If it becomes accepted for infants, which seems very possible, I'd expect it to move to older children as well over time.

Show quote history

I think there is also a real range amongst people with regards to attitudes towards extreme prematurity for example. There are people who believe that we should take all steps available to preserve the life of very very premature babies that without a vast amount of intervention would certainly not survive, others take a view that preserving life at the cost of a lifetime of disability for example is unethical in the extreme. Neither of these views is right or wrong per se, they are differing perspectives.

Legobricksinatub · 03/12/2025 16:54

SleeplessInWherever · 03/12/2025 16:37

I think most people have the “let’s not euthanise children” moral… don’t they?

Show quote history

Apart from the Dutch, Belgiums and Canadians….

FiatLuxAdAstra · 03/12/2025 16:56

Legobricksinatub · 03/12/2025 16:51

To investigate about 70 million people plus businesses and a total DWP expenditure of £276 billion.

Edited
Show quote history

It’s way more than the NHS or MoD have.

And you forget much of it is done with advanced data mining and information sharing between departments and now data sharing from banks. Banks are now required to send a report every month of any one with more than £16k across all their bank accounts. It’s a 10min job for an investigator to run a report that looks for matches of people with more than £16k and an active UC claim.

UC is where the highest % of fraud is btw…it’s the “hardworking” families that commit the most benefit fraud.

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