Is the renaming of Dublin’s Herzog Park antisemitic?

[OpheliaIsntMad]

I think it is . Why make this decision at a time when anti semitism is increasing?

de Valera paid a courtesy call to his neighbour and friend the German ambassador after Hitler's death to make a formal acknowledgement, but also to reassure the man that he would not be expelled. In Germany he would have been a target of both the allies and any lingering Nazis, since he had kept very quiet in dispatches about the extent to which Irish military neutrality was a cover for strong support for the allies.

I was in college in the late 70s when Cork's synagogue was closing, and there was a lot of sadness. The community was seen as good citizens and its Jewish Lord Mayor was well liked, but there was an acknowledgement that for a lot of younger Jews emigration to Israel was important and that was leaving small communities with fewer and fewer choices for people who didn't want to 'marry out'.

In Ireland, both the interest in going to other countries to work, and the wish to marry within ones faith group, were understood. And for some Irish religious traditionalists at that time Jews, outsiders in some ways, were seen as at least better than the Catholics/Protestants

That Mayor, Gerald Goldberg, had a life that included exposure to Irish anti-antisemitism, to Irish republicanism, and to Zionism. An interesting man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Goldberg

I didn’t start this thread as an “Israel supporter”.
I started it because I am concerned that what is happening in the Middle East is impacting innocent Jewish people who are citizens of other countries.
It is WRONG and it is anti semitic .

After 9/11 we were very aware that innocent Muslims must not be targeted or held responsible for the actions of a few. Obviously there were still Islamophobic incidents but there was condemnation of this.
I want to see the same condemnation of antisemitism in all its forms.

Edited to add - Many (most?) Irish people are disgusted with the antisemitism of DCC proposal .

It is not antisemitic to want to remove from a park the name of an Israeli president who oversaw ethnic cleansing in Palestine. People want it removed because of his ideology and actions, not because he was Jewish. To deliberately confuse the 2 is in fact antisemitic.

Perhaps you should look at some of the other statues and plaques in Dublin - are you sure they are all of people whose every action you approve of?

No, lets stay on topic and focus on Herzog

My point was on topic.
I was pointing out that there is a double standard in your approach and it is antisemitic

Agree. Herzog had long been portrayed in Ireland as an ordinary Irish born person who went to Israel and happened to become President. It has only been in recent times that his past and history has been widely exposed.

The truth is much more sinister. He went to Israel and became a prominent member of Haganah, a paramilitary Israeli group that took part in the Nakba against the Palestinian population in 1948. What happened to the Palestinian people in 1948 and up to the present day resonates strongly with Irish people due to their own history. That cannot be ignored and to do so shows a clear distorted attempt to rewrite history. What's happening elsewhere in Europe cannot be compared in any way with the majority Irish reaction to the plight of the Palestinian people.

Herzog's son is following in his father's footsteps.

Cork was very cute going with 'Shalom Park', making the point and sidestepping the politics.

The Taoiseach has condemned this proposal as appearing antisemitic. Whatever your view of Herzog, it is not the right time to start tearing down names of Jewish people. It sends a worrying message to Jewish citizens of Ireland .

You've some nerve insinuating I am antisemitic. Please explain how what I said was antisemitic? You won't though as you are just trying to cloud the issue by saying that. There is no defence of Herzog the Israeli war criminal who as a commander of the Israeli army was responsible for the theft of Palestinian land, upholding apartheid and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank. But you know this so all you're left with is throwing about the antisemitic accusations. People don't object to a park being named after him because he was Jewish but instead because he was essentially an Israeli war criminal.

What the Taoiseach says has nothing to do with anything.

It is time to tear down the names of Zionist war criminals, him being Jewish is purely incidental. Keeping the name does more harm to Jewish people.

How is it antisemitic?

You’re not qualified to comment with a post like that.

Micheál Martin can say what he likes but the reaction from non establishment people tells it's own story.
What the 'controversy' has done, is exposed Herzog and his brutality to a much wider audience, which is good. There are many Jewish people who would not support or want to commemorate a man who was an IDF commander during the Nakba, illegally occupied Latrun, was the first military Governor of the West Bank overseeing mass illegal settlements and the murder of Palestinian families.

Irish history lives in the memory of it's people, the effects are still around the country and that massively influences their independent thinking. They know and recognise injustice when they see it. They recognise a brutal regime in which Herzog had a major role. Sin é.

Important to understand that it's not within your power to unilaterally define what constitutes on topic here. You are allowed to want this to be solely about one specific proposal in one specific park if you want, but nobody else is obligated to agree with your definition of what the parameters are. Dublin Council, a large elected body with substantial resources that they make decisions about how to use, own more than one park. They have authority over many naming traditions in public spaces. Anyone who wants to take a purely isolationist approach over any one local government proposal is going to have to do a very good job at explaining why, in any context.

But this is why it was quite a can of worms to open. The Russell statue has long been controversial, and that was the case well before this proposal. Dublin as a city doesn't benefit from global discussion about the decision to have a statue of a Nazi hobnobber who died on a U-boat standing and maintained in one of the parks they own.

And important for you to understand that there is huge difference between Russell who did a bit of training with the Nazi army and a commander in the IDF who oversaw the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their own land. This ethnic cleansing has never ceased and still goes on today alongside a blatant genocide in Gaza so It's not really a balanced comparison, is it. It's no comparison at all.

You're allowed to think that, of course. What you don't get to do is to dictate the parameters of the discussion.

This isn't even a specifically anti-Russell or pro-Herzog argument. One could agree totally with the beliefs you express here in principle, whilst understanding that the inevitable consequence of making the argument. That is, being asked for clarification about exactly what level of collusion with genocidal regimes is considered acceptable by Dublin City Council when it comes to commemorative public spaces. It's unwise for anyone to do that unless they're prepared to provide a detailed answer.

I agree 💯 with this .
Herzog is being commemorated as an Irish citizen who rose to become the head of state of another democratic nation with whom Ireland has had friendly relations for decades. Like most politicians, he has a flawed legacy but He was not involved in the current conflict.

It’s only anti-semitic if you believe everything is anti-semitic.

I mean it can be argued that this seems like a silly gesture but it clearly has nothing to do with his Jewishness and everything to do with his being a President of Israel.

What I DO believe to be anti-semitic is the constant conflation of “Jewish” and “Israeli / Israel”.

Indeed. While I can't dictate the course of the discussion I can decide if I want myself being derailed by the notion of the Russell statue being in any way directly comparable with Herzog Park. There are of course varying degrees of collusion with genocidal regimes and to try to equate Russell with Herzog is deliberately clouding the issue of having the park renamed. But you work away with it if you want

But I'm just pissed off now that someone said I was being antisemitic without telling me why! Maybe they'll come back and enlighten me.

"A flawed legacy" 😅 So displacing hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and land is just a little flaw ???

I think the focus on removing the names of Jewish people from public spaces while not be bothered about moving other contentious figures is antisemitic.
So - yes - if you are only bothered about Herzog but not non Jewish figures then you seem antisemitic to me .

It's not removing the name of a Jewish person,, it's removing the name of a Zionist IDF commander.

You are deliberately confusing Jewish with Israeli. That is antisemitic.

Oh, it's not about me. I'm only one individual. It's about the wider conversation this inevitably starts.

But you should be clear, it's quite possible to hold the views you do about the involvement of both in genocide, ie not think the two men can be equated, and still understand that this leaves the question open as to what the appropriate level of collusion with genocide is. If the line isn't collaboration with the literal Nazis then elected representatives are going to be asked to make clear where it is. This isn't a partisan point.

It would be wise to understand and accept the inevitable implications of this before supporting a name change, or even a vote on it.