Is the renaming of Dublin’s Herzog Park antisemitic?

[OpheliaIsntMad]

I think it is . Why make this decision at a time when anti semitism is increasing?

What absolutely delusional nonsense. Thousands of innocent women and children murdered.

The majority of Irish people would support attempts to expose and defeat anti-semitism where they see it @OpheliaIsntMad.

That doesn’t mean Irish people can’t read critcally and object when someone writes or posts something misleading. It’s always a good idea to read astutely, to analyse what others write, to practice discerment when it comes to social media especially. To think.

I believe Rachel Moiselle has the best of motives but it is clear that she is lacking in experience. Her passion for her subject combined with her youth means that she isn’t as exacting as she needs to be when it comes to her posts and articles. That means she’s subject to justified criticism (as well as that which is unjustified).

And no, @SharonEllis, ‘many’ Irish people were not celebrating Oct 7th. Unless by ‘many’ you mean a very small minority perhaps?
Ireland as a country was horrified by the events of Oct 7th. If you lived here you would know that. As the saying goes, you can’t believe everything you read.

And of course you won’t believe me either. But I hope what I’m telling you will at least give you pause. Why don’t you choose to believe Rachel when she says antisemitism is not widespread in Ireland?

It was because of his actions in Israel, not because he was Jewish. If the park had been named after, say, a Jewish artist, I don’t believe the suggestion would have been made.
That said, I agree with OP that changing the name at this time wouldn’t be right. It would be an anti-semitic expression towards the present Jewish community. Not on.

You seem a bit confused, if you don't mind me saying so. Ireland clearly has a problem with antisemitism. It is now well documented by other Jewish people not just Rachel. What is a bit particular to Ireland is that the government is part of the problem, one of the last to adaopt the IHRA definition, for example. The Jewish community requesting that the President does not attend HMD being another good example ( he did and, true to form, indulged in Holocaust inversion).

As usual, if we were talking about any other minority people's first response would be to listen to them, to believe them. With Jewish people the first response is to disbelieve them, assume ulterior motives and of course the individual Jews have to be completely unimpeachable. Only the perfect Jew can legitimately be the target of antisemitism.

Rachel Moiselle has held up a mirror to the way antisemitism works. I'd suggest people reflect on that.

A few links

Anti-Semitism report will detail ‘over 100 incidents of hatred’, chief rabbi says – The Irish Times https://share.google/G8xPTV3WaS2gZRxZd

Fathom – ‘Anti-Zionism’ has become the new Antisemitism in Ireland https://share.google/VKt8kOP7stTzGxuGY

https://open.substack.com/pub/nicolelampert/p/what-is-irelands-problem-with-israel?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&shareImageVariant=overlay&r=7ave2

Amid anti-Israel hostility, Irish Jews say antisemitism is now rooted in public schools | The Times of Israel https://share.google/y8c0vvHNeqkEtQ7nN

AJC Directly Addresses Antisemitism and Vilification of Israel in Ireland with the Prime Minister | AJC https://share.google/PVv58UlpUAAyEPLp3

How can you possibly know that there is 'zero evidence' that 'many Irish people' celebrated 7 October.
Because there is zero evidence that this occurred, not sure why you think it is ok to make such statements about "many" Irish people (defined as: a large number of; the majority of people) doing something because you know people did it in other places so they must have done it there, and not just did it but the majority did it. We are talking about something as grotesque as celebrating rape and child murder, I am not sure many people would be happy if that claim was made about a large number of their population without any evidence to back it up.

Why would Ireland, with its long history of pro-Pal activism not have contained many people supporting it?
Supporting Palestine is very different to celebrating the rape of women and death of children. My God!

Many people in the UK did
Yes I have seen videos to evidence this I doubt you would make this claim if you hadn't. Have you seen videos of Irish people celebrating? If you haven't why did you think it is ok to make a claim about something that you have nothing to back it up with.

Antisemitism is an issue in Ireland as it is everywhere but as I said if Rachel wants to be the voice of something she needs to stick to facts or she loses all credibility. Not sure why you can't see that, if someone lies about or exaggerates something not many will believe them when they are actually telling the truth.

Many is not in general parlance understood to mean 'a majority'. If Rachel or anyone else meant 'a majority' they would have said a or the majority. They did not. If you really think Ireland was the only place in the world where nobody celebrated 7 October then there is nothing I can do for you.

I don’t believe there was celebrations as implied. When I first read it, reading people were celebrating, I thought no, further investigation finds it was a tweet not actually Irish people celebrating in the street on October the 7th. Why would they do that on October 7th.
Rachel, is stirring up trouble, she is exaggerating stories to cause division.

That works both ways.
You are convinced that Ireland is a raging place full of antisemitism, posters have tried to point out that Rachel is exaggerating,
If you cannot be convinced, then there is no more we can do to reassure you.

Thousands of innocent women and children die in every war. That does not make it a genocide.

Many is defined as majority and does mean large number, you would not say the word many if you were referring to a small number of people would you?

If you are happy to believe something that has no evidence because others did it too, there is nothing I can do for you.

No, many is only defined as a majority when it is a noun i.e. 'the many'.

It just means 'a lot' in other contexts. I suspect 'the many' in Ireland dont particularly give a shit. A Jewish student on campus might quite accurately say that many people were making their lives very difficult and that antisemitism was a real problem. That wouldnt mean that the majority of people in Ireland were antisemitic.

Who said Ireland was a raging place full of antisemitism? Stop twisting.

So a large number of people .... still sounds like a lot, would still expect to see some evidence of this large number of Irish people celebrating the rape of women and murder of children.
My reason for raising this is not to deny antisemitism it is to point out that she runs the risk of losing credibility if she is using false or exaggerated claims to make her point. Once people can start picking holes in what you are saying they stop listening and stop trusting you.

Well the countless threads on mumsnet on it over the past couple of years and the hyperfocus on Ireland in the Israeli press definitely lead to that assumption

Poor Rachel getting all this crap. No, not all of Ireland back Palestine but a hell of a lot do because they see it as analogous with the British army. What was the business with the rappers Kneecap? Maybe no outward celebrations were made but there's certainly a section who make it clear that they value Palestinian lives over Jewish. Now reverse that and you get the outrage and calls of genocide denial. Empathy for one culture and hate for another.

Jews and their advocates are used to not being believed. I think she will cope with losing the interest of a group who weren't really invested in the first place.

I’m not confused at all. The majority of Irish people are not anti-semitic and would thus support efforts to extinguish it here is what I said @SharonEllis.

From the Irish Times article you linked the Chief Rabbi is quoted as saying it is his belief “that only a very small minority in this country wish to marginalise or threaten Jewish people.” He goes on to say that “even this small number is having a very real and damaging impact” and I agree with that.

Rachel Moiselle, while pointing out all the problems and how we can do better and entreating people to listen, also acknowledges that “antisemitism is not widespread in Ireland.”

There are a lot of problems and we must do better and I am doing my best to listen. I’m not confused.

Those articles you linked are a very mixed bag by the way. A lot to reflect on but a lot of rubbish and some very blatant inaccuracies too.

I think part of the problem is that as Chief Rabbi Yoni Wieder says “the distinction [between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism] doesn’t always hold where effects on Ireland’s Jewish community is concerned”. The AJC (in the article you linked) took Taoiseach Micheál Martin to task for “accusing Israel of committing war crimes, pursuing collective punishment of the Palestinian people, as well as using starvation as a weapon of war” and “explained that these actions and statements are contributing to antisemitism facing Ireland’s Jews and separating Ireland from nearly all of its European neighbours”. Most Irish people don’t support Israel’s actions in Gaza however, and appreciate Michéal Martin’s strong position on this.

Kneecap are in the UK though (Belfast), not ROI. Anything the Irish state does to combat anti-semitism won’t have any effect on them.

They still surely represent Ireland?

They are Irish sure, but they’re from the UK (Belfast). My point is there have been calls to combat anti-semitism, but nothing the Irish government does in this regard will affect Kneecap at all.

They don’t represent me btw. Though I appreciate their support of the Irish language, I do not appreciate a lot of what they do. I wouldn’t say they ‘represent’ Ireland, no. They are Irish.

You answer tells me you are not really listening and not taking steps to understand how antizionism and opposition to Israel CAN be antisemitism and can breed an antisemitic environment.

It certainly does not follow that, even if 'The majority of Irish people are not anti-semitic' they 'would thus support efforts to extinguish it here'. I think there is no evidence for that whatsoever and the very well evidenced knee jerk reaction to be defensive, rather than pause and listen to the Jewish community actually suggests otherwise. The obsessive harassment of Rachel Moiselle and the focus on undermining her rather than listening to her also suggests otherwise.

You are the one of masters of twisting the narrative.

Why is Rachel Moiselle getting such a hard time if she acknowledges that antisemitism isn’t “widespread” but is simply ( and accurately) pointing out that it is increasing? Look at what happened in Louth recently- and at what members of Ireland’s Jewish community are saying.
Im honestly baffled as to why someone like you - who evidently detests antisemitism- is spending more time criticising Rachel Moiselle’s perhaps overly emotive approach than you are in supporting her?

No, kneecap represents the oppression in NI by the UK government. Something the republic of Ireland hasn’t experienced in over 100 years.

We don’t have to agree @SharonEllis.
Criticism of Israel’s actions can be valid. The Irish government supports a two state solution so is not anti-Zionist.

Are you in Ireland btw?