Does anyone else find recent graduates very lacking in grammar and spelling skills?

[headtohead]

I manage a team where every year we have a graduate intake. It’s a technical role (think construction industry). All of these people put in decently written CV’s and interview well.

In a lot of cases though, when it comes to them starting the role it’s pretty clear that they are hopeless at writing simple emails. Their spelling and grammar is atrocious, they have no understanding of setting out a letter or a mail, they cannot use commas and full stops, nor do they use capitals at the start of sentences.

We need to write succinct, technically accurate replies to customers, they write as they would talk about the subject. ‘You can’t use that brick there’ - no explanation to customer of what the correct product is and why etc. Just like a child would write a sentence.

It’s not just the recent intake that are like this, I’ve noticed it over the last few years. I’m constantly rewriting their replies or helping them to word things in a better way. They totally reply on spellcheck but that will often change the word to something totally different but the writer simply does not see it as they don’t know how it’s spelled in the first place.

These are adults with good degrees, how did we lose so much written English ability? Is anyone else noticing this?

I’m sure there are. I think my son’s comment is not meant to be taken seriously. 😀

There are plenty of free youtube videos to demonstrate these basic things though. How to organise your email inbox etc. It's a matter of them being proactive and spending time teaching themselves.

Yep.

It’s certainly true of the students we get in school who are training to be teachers. Illegible handwriting, incorrect grammar, an inability to organise text into cohesive paragraphs and shocking spelling. I’m currently in class with a student completing his PGCE - when he writes on the board the children are unable to read it. Often, neither am I. One of his targets is to write legibly which when you think about it is pretty pathetic. Targets should be much more challenging for a trainee teacher. The sad thing is, he’s not an isolated example.

I agree. I’m mid-30s and don’t have the best SPaG but I’m miles above some of my colleagues.

Example email I would send:

Hi Joanne,

I’m currently working on X case and can see that you’ve been in contact with the client about it already. Please can you provide me with a timeline of work so far so that I can pass this on?

Thanks,
Maureen

Example of a colleagues:

hi joanne,

I seen that youve have spoken to the client about X? whats Happened so far. they want details of time contacted and how many times.

…….

I know there’ll be plenty to pick apart in my example but it’s just the basics of capitals (there’s always random capitals and then none where they should be!), punctuation, wrong tense that is so, so jarring. That, plus the random font changes and font size change where they’ve pasted something but not made it fit in. Then either far too many lines between paragraphs or none at all.

Popping my hard hat on now for the influx of corrections which I always welcome, genuinely, but really this is an MN post and not exactly my finest work, promise.

If this is an important part of the role and new staff are failing at it, I agree with PP, set a task at interview stage.

I can’t say I have noticed this as a problem in my sector (law.)

For crying out loud, the op is posting on a social media site for a casual conversation and probably not proof reading forensically. Bit different to in a professional, graduate role.

As you can tell from my post….I need to slow down and practice what I preach 😂

Exactly. I've no idea why people start salivating with excitement to 'gotcha' the OP whenever there's a grammar related post.

The style of writing usual to an informal social media forum is completely different to that expected in work related correspondence. Not to mention OP's minor errors aren't on the same level as (apparently) her colleagues' are; her post is still completely coherent.

Saying that, I'm not completely sure I agree with the OP. I've worked in the public sector for years and there's always been a huge variety in the level of SPAG. I still remember puzzling for ages over a letter received about 10 years ago that declared the writer's child was "orti stick." I was at a museum earlier today that had letters from the first world war from 'normal' soldiers to their family, and again quite a lot of variation.

Yes, on one hand it's a bit embarrassing that we haven't improved in over 100 years despite the average person spending a further 4-5 years in school, but on the other, they would have had a far more intensive education, focussing solely on reading, writing (and 'rithmetic) every day without the benefit of all of our distractions/aids. Perhaps we should just accept that at least half of the population just aren't very literate, and won't automatically 'get it' no matter how long they spend in formal education.

I think you mean 'proof read'

As I said, mistakes happen. We're all human.

Yes. Even those with a Masters degree. I’ve come to the conclusion that they don’t care because, if they did, they would use the Microsoft spell and grammar checker.

Amongst my colleagues, some of who are only in their 30s and 40s, it eases the stress of work to post the most egregious errors on Teams.

So you wouldn't want them including apostrophes unnecessarily or comma splicing, as per your OP?

I work for a large organisation and find very few people can now write coherent grammatical English. Verb/subject agreement, punctuation, all missing. Sentences crawl off and die in a mist of muddle & incoherence.

The muddled sentences perpetuate muddled thoughts.

The muddled thoughts lead to incompetence.

My organisation is collapsing as the result of peoples’ ability to write or think coherently.

This all reflects political choices that were made about what and how we teach, and how it is funded.

Yep. In my experience the deterioration has been in the last 10 years. It's been a very, very clear decline. That doesn't mean everyone always had perfect English and grammar or that nobody does now - it means there's a pattern of deterioration and ime ot specifically revolves around communication being on the level of a text.

Thank you Michael Gove.

Agreed. A post on MN is hardly the equivalent of an email to a customer.

No, my grads show the same range of writing skills as professionals of any other age. I recently took on a fresh grad in a copywriting role and she's great.

Hilarious. Your own post is chock full of errors too!
😂

I suspect it’s to do with the poor quality of a lot of secondary education. I’m a uni lecturer and I personally find my students write quite well (some of my colleagues in their 40s+ are awful though).

But if the spelling and grammar of my Y8 DD’s teachers is diabolical. Same goes for the leadership and admin teams. She doesn’t get a homework assignment set that doesn’t have all sorts of spelling and grammatical mistakes.

They also don’t seem to read books! She gets set a little bit of reading on an app, but it’s like read a few pages and then answer mind numbingly boring questions about it. When I was her age, I was reading whole books and having to critique them. It’s a bit depressing.

I work in a healthcare role and have had to help newly qualified professionals with emails and letters to patients!

I wonder if it’s symptomatic of a general lack of presentation.

A relative has described candidates who arrive for an interview accompanied by a parent; seemingly not sufficiently independent to attend on their own. They arrive late, make little attempt to present themselves smartly and are lacking in interpersonal skills.

No, I meant "proof reading" as in the present tense of as she goes along, not the past tense. Don't be an arse.

Agree with setting a written task for interview. It also sounds like there needs to be some training about appropriate letter and report writing and some random reviews. Training should also cover expectations - that letters will be proof read for example.

Post MommaMaxine is answering.....

RhaenysRocks · Today 20:39
For crying out loud, the op is posting on a social media site for a casual conversation and probably not proof reading forensically. Bit different to in a professional, graduate role.

Yes, mistakes happen, but then again you get posters who attempt to correct something which was actually right as it was originally written!
"Is posting......and probably not proof reading" : the same form of the verb is correctly used either side of "and". No need to repeat the auxiliary "is".
You're welcome.

I completely agree. I’m in a healthcare field and the phrasing of referral letters and appropriate formal address defeats many graduates. I have to rewrite their letters and effectively teach them.

It definitely comes from lack of reading as my dd is much better than my ds. She is still an avid reader. Interestingly for her finance graduate role she had formal tests in writing as well as numeracy.

I had to read broadsheets and older literature as that was all that was available at home once I had read my books from the library . My English teacher bemoaned our lack of formal grammar skills in the 1970s. My children, having been taught grammar under the newer system, became very formulaic in their writing- as this gained marks in GCSE- and actively disliked the subject as a result.

My work has also begun issuing training and updates by watching videos rather than giving reading material. I much prefer to read, but am obviously in a minority now. AI isn’t helping matters I feel.