Does anyone else find recent graduates very lacking in grammar and spelling skills?

[headtohead]

I manage a team where every year we have a graduate intake. It’s a technical role (think construction industry). All of these people put in decently written CV’s and interview well.

In a lot of cases though, when it comes to them starting the role it’s pretty clear that they are hopeless at writing simple emails. Their spelling and grammar is atrocious, they have no understanding of setting out a letter or a mail, they cannot use commas and full stops, nor do they use capitals at the start of sentences.

We need to write succinct, technically accurate replies to customers, they write as they would talk about the subject. ‘You can’t use that brick there’ - no explanation to customer of what the correct product is and why etc. Just like a child would write a sentence.

It’s not just the recent intake that are like this, I’ve noticed it over the last few years. I’m constantly rewriting their replies or helping them to word things in a better way. They totally reply on spellcheck but that will often change the word to something totally different but the writer simply does not see it as they don’t know how it’s spelled in the first place.

These are adults with good degrees, how did we lose so much written English ability? Is anyone else noticing this?

This is why I give a written test when recruiting.

I have someone on loan to me from another department. He’s 34, RICS qualified, but his emails, as I told him, make my eyes bleed. Last week I had to explain to him when to use (and not use) reflexive pronouns.

Nope, I find the same. Emails are written like texts and punctuation is non-existent. I do feel like predictive text has made my spelling worse as well to be fair. But seeing the absolute state of emails, application forms and general communication from 16-25 year olds just now, I'm making sure my daughter knows how to do some of these things. I don't want her leaving school unable to complete an application form and send an email properly.

Also an issue in primary is that they're often not being taught how to navigate the devices they're using. They don't know where to save and retrieve files from etc, either on computers or iPads. Imo it's more important for them to be able to do that than click on a pre-loaded app.

What are the errors?
Can you give some examples?

The 30yr olds are pretty bad too! So fed up with pointing out their repeated SPAG mistakes 🙄🙈

I’m not perfect at it myself but I can set an email out and write an accurate, explanatory response. I can lay everything out clearly and I have reasonable spelling and grammar. Some of the emails that I’ve been asked to check over the past week or so are shocking!

CVs don't show you that someone can write. It just shows you that they know how to use AI etc to produce one that looks like they can write.

The fact that they can't use formal written English naturally is all down to the fact that they don't read good quality written English anywhere. Not many read books. None of them read quality broadsheets so even knowledge they may have on current affairs is picked up by very basically written news apps. I mean, BBC news is fine, but it's very dumbed down in some areas, as if it's aimed at teenagers. (eg, an adult should already know that a slowdown in the rate of inflation does not mean that prices are coming down, and not need an explanation of it every time they read a piece of news about the economy but that's something I am seeing all the time recently on the BBC news app.)

We have some great teachers at the primary school I work out, but god, some of the younger ones just can't spell. It's scary. I mean, they have fantastic teacher qualities and skills in all other areas but I do cringe when I see things on their classroom wall that have spelling errors in.

I don't know what the answer is. I feel like they will learn a lot from their older colleagues in terms once they start reading things that their colleagues produce, but until they SEE formal communications day in day out, how are they going to know what it even looks like?

The obvious thing to do is give them a written task as part of the recruitment process. An actual written task, pen on paper, no access to spell checks. Colleagues would also probably need to be able to read their handwriting. I have no idea why employers don't do this, given that written English standards have dropped.

I agree with others that the best standards of written English I've seen is amongst educated non-native speakers. It shows how low our standards have dropped when our own population can't use their own language properly.

I also think that young adults in the US seem to have a better grasp of English than in the UK too, and seem much more articulate too.

Does anyone know of any good courses or apps that can help improve someone’s SPAG? Duolingo I presume might help?

I am in Yorkshire and some of my colleagues write as they speak -"you was" instead of "you were" for example.

Yes OP. I’m astounded.

Graduates at my place of work with Firsts (seems 50% are awarded now, rather than 5% in my day - and it shows) are terrible. Spelling, grammar. Unbelievable!

Watch any old video of children speaking, or even old game shows with young ones, they’re so much more articulate and knowledgeable. Too much innit and bro now…..

I agree OP. We've hired two new paralegals this year, one recent grad and one law student part time. They can barely construct a sentence, let alone a full email or an advice letter.

They are otherwise keen, polite and clever but it's frightening. One of them emailed a client 'I seen you had been looking for me but I am in meetings and will call later.' I seen!! What the fuck is that?

My personal bugbear is the !!! some of ours use, it reads like something an over excited 13 year old writes.

I'm by no means perfect but some are dreadful.

No, they need to be able to produce a piece of writing that comes out of their own brain. Not just correct someone else's. So I would give them something like an email from an imaginary client with an issue relevant to the organisation and ask them to produce an appropriate reply. No computers to be used. Pen and paper.

I'd also give them a formal letter to read, eg a letter from a solicitor's office, or from an official body giving information on new regulations relevant to the role or organisation and ask them to summarise the main points.

My husband, a scientist, asks me to proof read anything important: it's not even my native language. So yes, shades of Eliza Doolittle: those who have the most perfect grasp of the language must be foreign.
A friend who was trying to recruit engineers had to correct the successful candidate's CV and covering letter and get them to re submit it as it would stay in their file and it was littered with mistakes which 20 years ago would have precluded employment at that level.
So yes, I do think the general standard of literacy is deteriorating.

This is a perfect example of what I mean.

I was the first intake of GCSE English nearly 40 years ago. I don’t recall exactly what the rules are about commas and I probably use too many. I was and still am a prolific reader though and I know that has helped me learn to spell and has improved my understanding of the meaning of words.

Compared to people of my age though, youngsters today seem absolutely clueless. It’s very sad, I spend most of my time rechecking work that I should be able to leave in the capable hands of others.

No. I teach 3rd year students and they have a good standard of written English. We also have graduates working for us and they are very proficient too. This trope wasn’t true when I was a graduate 35 years ago and people said the same thing, and it isn’t true now.

There is no way round this but to have a written task element as part of any future recruitment you do. The bums on seats method of university admissions has meant that employers now can't tell which graduates are "old school" graduate quality. I hate to say it but there are graduates and there are graduates, and we all know what I mean.

I don't think blind recruitment processes help. You are not going to get an Oxbridge graduate with awful written English. But so many times on here I see people on here banging on about how great blind recruitment is. I'm sure it works well if the rest of the recruitment process is robust, and tests every area (like formal writing ability). But too often applications are only done online (and so produced by AI and spell-checked etc) and no-one will have a clue how good their written English ACTUALLY is till they're sat at their desk shocking their older colleagues with their poor ability.

If a high standard of written English is essential to the role, then there HAS to be a weeding out process.

Why all the nit picking here? It's obvious that a post on MN doesn't have to be as well written as one to your clients or bosses

There are definitely engineers who can spell.😆

@Lambington It was bad when I was involved in graduate recruitment in the 2000s. I think it's a combination of poor education standards, 'text speak' and the Internet, together with entitlement so that people always think they're right.

That’s Engineers for you. My son claims if an Engineer can spell they studied the wrong subject! He’s a Chartered Engineer. 😂

Well, a lot of people on this thread disagree with your rather sweeping statement.

Probably those posters are the people the OP is talking about 🤣🤣🤣.

I do think some young people without those skills CAN learn from their older, more experienced colleagues though. I have a young colleague I work with and she has learned so much from how to speak on the phone from just listening to me, she is doing really well but hated to even answer the phone when she started. The potential is often there. But we are full time in the office, customer-facing, and there is a lot of learning from others, just watching what they do and learning from them. FT home working or even hybrid working is absolutely destroying young people's opportunities to learn from their older colleagues.

I do think some young people without those skills CAN learn from their older, more experienced colleagues though. I have a young colleague I work with and she has learned so much from how to speak on the phone from just listening to me, she is doing really well but hated to even answer the phone when she started. The potential is often there. But we are full time in the office, customer-facing, and there is a lot of learning from others, just watching what they do and learning from them. FT home working or even hybrid working is absolutely destroying young people's opportunities to learn from their older colleagues.

It's so depressing to hear of head teachers and English teachers who can't spell. I work in a professional role and writing clearly is a huge part of my job.

I have two teens and yes they gave up reading after primary but we insist they have a book on the go and that they read a decent newspaper a couple of times a week. At their age I was reading my parents' copy of the Sunday Times cover to cover every week.

We've also taught them how to write emails, I find it ridiculous that recent grads don't know how to do this. My DC frequently have to email teachers etc, they both have part time jobs and often need to send emails to their employers. They are mid teens and they manage very well.