Does anyone else find recent graduates very lacking in grammar and spelling skills?

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I manage a team where every year we have a graduate intake. It’s a technical role (think construction industry). All of these people put in decently written CV’s and interview well.

In a lot of cases though, when it comes to them starting the role it’s pretty clear that they are hopeless at writing simple emails. Their spelling and grammar is atrocious, they have no understanding of setting out a letter or a mail, they cannot use commas and full stops, nor do they use capitals at the start of sentences.

We need to write succinct, technically accurate replies to customers, they write as they would talk about the subject. ‘You can’t use that brick there’ - no explanation to customer of what the correct product is and why etc. Just like a child would write a sentence.

It’s not just the recent intake that are like this, I’ve noticed it over the last few years. I’m constantly rewriting their replies or helping them to word things in a better way. They totally reply on spellcheck but that will often change the word to something totally different but the writer simply does not see it as they don’t know how it’s spelled in the first place.

These are adults with good degrees, how did we lose so much written English ability? Is anyone else noticing this?

I went back and had cast a critical beady over the OP. Noted a few punctuation errors, use of 'reply' instead of 'rely', two uses of the word 'but' within the same sentence. All small fry for a casual post on Mumsnet, I would have said.

No biggie. Am now champing at the bit for the PP to return and edumacate us all on the horrific grammatical errors.

What about some basic training as part of their induction? My DS started work last year in the finance industry. He has a first class MMath but other than writing his dissertation (which was mostly technical) he hasn't written anything significant since GCSE.
I have been really impressed with the company he works for though - quite thorough induction training on how the company wants their reports laid out as well as a structured program for their new hires covering stuff like team working, team roles, presentation skills.

Yes, it is taught. Is all teaching good quality though? Increasingly the answer is no.

I think these things are often not corrected, as people feel they are (or will come across as) being overly picky. Usually, if the the key words are right, and meaning can be generally understood, non-standard habits become more ingrained.

The rules might not even have been taught explicitly, but the nature of composing a text is more complex than just knowing the rules. I think what's apparent with those entering the workplace more recently is a lack of attention (to detail) and the focus required to make all of the choices that are involved in creating a piece of writing.

Erm.......😬

You see, I don't particularly mind the odd typo on social media forums like MN, especially if it's obviously a typo and not a spelling mistake. But a complete lack of punctuation, even if you've only written a couple of lines (as you have here), does slow down the reader somewhat. As they're reading aloud in their head they have to do a millisecond of a pause to put some punctuation in so that the meaning becomes clearer.

I can forgive ect instead of etc in informal writing such as social media. It's often clearly just a typo. I think I do it myself as I'm a touch typist and those 3 letters are in close proximity on a keyboard using the the left hand. Wouldn't bother to check and correct if in an informal situation like on MN, but I would in work.

What kind of institution that's highly regarded has no space for physical exams? Coursework or take home assessments are not exams if they are not done under exam conditions, surely. If you can do them at home then it may as well be called homework.

Perhaps we lucky ones, who were actually taught grammar and punctuation, should set up an online tutoring group for illiterate young graduates? Take them back to Year 1 juniors?

My Russell Group university! I promise it’s not exaggeration - we have been informed categorically that there will never be any more in person exams (the only way imo that you can get round the AI issue). We have hundreds of students per year and there genuinely is no room big enough for them all. Of course you could split them across several venues but that’s been ruled out.
Our exams are done online and are open-book. They are different from coursework as the students have 24 hours rather than several weeks to complete them.
I don’t want to out myself by stating the institution but it’s a highly ranked RG one.

There is far too much time wasted in KS1 on ridiculous nonsense. One example, for Art: Year 1s are expected to learn the vocabulary "ferrule". I mean, I ask you. Most of the teachers didn't know what that means. Do we really think this is the sort of vocabulary that 5 and 6 year olds need to learn? Honestly, they are supposed to teach them all this high-level vocabulary and they know that the children probably won't remember it by the time they get to secondary school, and will never need to use it ever again unless they work in the art field.

There's just a total lack of common sense when it comes to designing curriculums for our smallest children. THAT is what is taking up all the time in the school day. On absolute nonsense. Then the children go home, and tell their parents and no doubt half the parents are impressed at the high level vocabulary that the school is teaching their child, but hopefully the other half are thinking that whoever designed that curriculum is an idiot.

That's shocking. I don't think many parents must realise things like this go on. Their kids have no experience of it being done any other way and just assume that's the way it's done in higher education, and probably don't even think to tell their parents HOW they actually do their exams.

Even at my own non-Russell group uni in the 90s the money was there for using different venues across the city (not university buildings) for exams. Obviously this was in the days before everyone lived online. But nevertheless, they probably had fewer students than they do now, and so I assume a lower income? What is all the money being spent on? Fancy new facilities to attract even more students that they can't afford to assess properly, but hand out ever more Firsts?

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Isn’t everyone now going to use copilot and ai to write all their emails? It’s interesting think where we’re heading with that.

Whatever the education secretary and Facebook think is our responsibility...as I said, everything from toothbrushing to pensions. A lot of things that absolutely ought to be taught at home in a domestic setting or left for young adults to research and learn by themselves but apparently not. So that's why I can't spend double time teaching basics.

Have to agree that quality is generally poor. My husband has a middle sized manufacturing company and now won’t consider newly qualified graduates as standard is so poor. Prefers the applicant to have experience and have worked upwards instead, and can then send them on courses if required to upskill them.

I've wondered this too.
AI will write the email then the recipient will use AI to summarise the email and compose a reply. When will any human cognition be involved?

Friend who is an old school journalist and despairs at the lack of reading, writing and comprehension skills in his younger, graduate, colleagues. He says they don’t even realise they ought to know these things.

I'm a teacher and completely agree. The problem as I see it is that once kids leave primary they often stop reading actual books. They also spend lots of time reading SM posts and messaging their friends, so the written English they are exposed to is very poor.

They don't get marked down for poor spelling and grammar, so where is the incentive to improve?

I’m not a graduate but did A level English in the 70s. Everyone in the sixth form had to do a Use of English exam even if taking science subjects, and Use of Welsh too, this was a Welsh medium school.

I read a lot and find that even modern fiction can be poorly written n terms of grammar. It’s meant to have been edited and proofread yet I still find myself having to reread a sentence several times to make sure I’ve understood it. Newspapers are the same. They used to be the gold standard of good writing but not any more.

I suppose also that before SM, most people didn't express their opinions in writing so the only written text you saw were in books, magazines and newspapers which did have a reasonably good standard of SPAG. Nowadays when everybody's opinion is published the lack of SPAG is obvious and, as Thatsaline says,when you are exposed to poor standards they become the acceptable norm in an ever declining vicious circle.

Obvious reason being AI. Still remarkably obvious when I mark an AI essay. I’m a uni lecturer so see this more often than not now. Will be honest and say I don’t mind students who use it to proof read or polish their work and I’d say it’s obvious who has done this. What I will not accept is a copy and paste job, which I do receive and I do give very low marks- sometimes a straight fail.

I could be like certain colleagues and take it to academic misconduct but I’m not interested in this, I just want students to know they won’t succeed in my modules if they’re lazy and copy and paste from chat GPT.

I’m not a graduate but did A level English in the 70s. Everyone in the sixth form had to do a Use of English exam even if taking science subjects, and Use of Welsh too, this was a Welsh medium school.

at my school, those of us doing Eng Lit and History didn't have to do Use of English. The Maths and Science bods had to do a weekly essay class too where they practised essay writing skills. But back then we only did 3 A Levels so there was time for these extras.

It would be interesting to know if the patents here are taking any action to ensure their kids have a stronger grasp. In other words, what do we as parents do?

DD didn't do exams at her highly ranked RG. She is ND, but it was their subject policy not an allowance for additional needs. We were told on the uni open day that they felt exams weren't the best way of bringing out the best in their students. I wish my DS had gone to the same uni.