To think all schools should teach children the old traditional hymns

[Staringintothevoid616]

Just switching between channels and Songs of Praise came on. It was a run down of the most popular school hymns.complete with recorders It brought back many memories and how important communal singing is. It doesn’t matter what your religion is, everyone should know the most popular hymns as a way of uniting society.

Does this really need to be spelled out?

There is a difference between learning about something and participating in it.

Some parents may understand their child's partipation in a Nativity play to be a violation of their faith. That will go for various people of faiths other than Christianity, and some Christians, too.

Freedom of religion, which necessarily includes freedom from religion, is a basic human right and a cornerstone of democracy.

Labelling parents who exercise that right by having their child - gasp - sit out one particular school play as "unfit" reeks of intolerance.

I suppose you could expand that out really to any parenting decisions. Why can’t my kid play Roblox when his friends are allowed? Why does my daughter go to bed at 930 when her friend goes to bed at 10? Children don’t all have to be the same and parents should and do have some sort of control over what their children do. Am pretty sure I’m the only parent who bans online gaming in my son’s class - that probably differentiates him more than anything else but I’m sure it’s right for us.

And reducing the nativity to an educational play is surely a bit offensive to Christians? A nativity is an important retelling of one of their most pivotal stories. It means something to some people and I think it’s a bit odd to force children to participate if it’s not comfortable for them or their parents.

There were 3 children who didn’t participate in my daughter’s nativity - one child with crippling anxiety and two religious Muslim children. They all have lovely, involved parents who are in no way unfit.

'Intelligence' if your definition of such is passing exams, and wealth are accidents of birth only in so far as our society is constructed. Human beings have decided that the ability to memorise facts is of higher value than a willingness to care for the elderly or to build a house. Human beings have decided that resources (wealth) should be hoarded within families and passed down generations to generate further wealth for the members of those families, rather than shared for the common good.
Whether or not one agrees with these social constructs or not, we should not be teaching our children that they are God's work in a Christian context when the example of Christ was to favour and uplift fishermen not academics, and to share resources amongst all.

Hymns also rely on musical taste. A lot of traditional hymns are intolerable dirges - I would leave the room instantly if Abide With Me came on.

I don't think tradition should be reinforced though - I think it should be dismantled as an archaic force of oppression.

A lot of traditional hymns are intolerable dirges - I would leave the room instantly if Abide With Me came on.

Christ I'd forgotten about that one. I have strong recollections of singing hymns at school, being bored rigid and wondering why the hell we had to do this every single day, but I don't remember many of the actual songs. Except Jerusalem. Bloody Jerusalem. My batty old religious nutter of a music teacher's favourite. It's only the last ten seconds that are any good yet some people suggest that dreary slog should be our national anthem. Ban it forever I say.

Somebody mentioned Lord of the Dance. The lyrics to that are awful as well

"They whipped and they stripped and they hung me on high and they left me there on the cross to die....DANCE, THEN, WHEREVER YOU MAY BE...."

The incongruity between the godawful grim lyrics and the chirpy tune and chorus struck me even as a kid. Then there's the utter dirge that starts "There is a green hill far way, without* a city wall...blah blah "dear Lord was crucified..."

*never made any sense at the time, due to not realising "without" was being used in an archaic way to mean "outside"

Yep, I grew up singing all this stuff at assembly, while being brought up in an atheist household, and am so glad it's mostly gone.

Put me in that camp then. I want my child to have a rounded education and learn about all sorts of belief systems, develop empathy and critical reasoning.

I don’t want her forced to act out elements of one specific belief system in a non-church state school on the regular.

Definitely agree about the dirges - so many of them need to be sung with a bit of gusto but unfortunately (in my old church at least) the person playing the organ couldn't manage any speed above 'Adagio' so we had to sing at a funereal pace.

Occasionally good old Roger would stand in, delightfully bonkers, and played with such verve that the congregation (of 6) just couldn't keep up - occasionally he would just stop playing in the middle of a verse for his own amusement and expect the congregation to keep going
And aside from the dirges, what about those tunes that are in a hard to sing key or have such high notes that only a trained singer can reach them? Most of the harvest hymns come under this category

Reminds me of singing "Guide me oh thy Great Jehovah/Redeemer" which has the line "open now the crystal fountain" The Chrystal Fountain was our local and as a child I thought it was God behind the men going there on Sunday while the women cooked dinner.

Ha, @5128gap .😁 And to be fair, you weren't entirely wrong. Religion and the patriarchy have always been there for each other.

Popular music songs from the last 100 years rather than ancient hymns from a religion we don't believe in. From musicians/bands like Bob Marley, The Beatles, Abba, etc. Some of which we would listen to at home but not all, so a great education in pop music (which has a history of its own, after all).

Raised an Irish Catholic but did secondary school in England. We used to sit an a room adjacent to the assembly hall so we would hear all the hymns , some of which were the same as our own of course. They remind me of trying to catch up with bits of homework abd gradually waking up. I do like those old hymns - some of the new ones are a bit cringe. Like bad 70s pop. Not sure how unifying they would be though?
Although Christmas is unifying I suppose.

It was at Jessop School in Brixton in the 1960s.

If you’re so precious about your faith, or lack thereof (and yes it’s the parents faith not the child’s choice) that it excludes a child from a schools activities with their friends, then that faith is seriously screwed up tbh. I don’t need to be tolerant of any adult who has a philosophy that negatively impacts a child, No child needs to feel excluded from what their peers are doing.

But none of those songs are relevant to my family. I suggest we use heavy metal, that is culturally far more relevant to the UK than ABBA

Happy to do as you suggest

They probably do some heavy metal too, I have no idea. We would be happy with that.

I wonder if that's due to immigration from the African continent. I previously worked in a sector which employed agency workers who were largely African Christians and very devout.

But your cherished philosophy of Christianity did negatively impact ME as a child. The PP is right, complete intolerance and a choice to refuse to see anyone else’s perspective.

Why should everyone sing about Christianity though? Singing is great but not when it's about a religion you don't follow or believe in.

There are billions of songs they can teach children in school. Hymns are just a way of indoctrinating people into religious beliefs.

Now you're talking. Jogged my memory there. Also Drink to me only with thine eyes. Cruel Barbara Allen , The Miller of the Dee , Charlie Is Me Darling , Frére Jacques. It's a lost world!
@ColinOfficeTrolley I went to Catholic school at five . Never heard that gruesome stuff. That would nauseate an adult to be fair.

The Skye Boat Song is a good trad tune too. But I used to love What Shall we do with the drunken sailor

Because hymns are used in many nationally important gatherings. The thing is everyone should know them and be able to join in. They are a part of British Heritage and culture. You can sing them without having to believe you know!

In what way did Christianity negatively impact you as a child???

Yes - it's amazing the number of people in the UK these days who don't seem to understand the first thing about Christianity. And it's impossible to really understand anything about the last 2000 years of Western history and culture without it. So learning a few hymns could help with that. Plus bringing back what when I was at school were called Scripture lessons.