To think all schools should teach children the old traditional hymns

[Staringintothevoid616]

Just switching between channels and Songs of Praise came on. It was a run down of the most popular school hymns.complete with recorders It brought back many memories and how important communal singing is. It doesn’t matter what your religion is, everyone should know the most popular hymns as a way of uniting society.

But wouldn't a Catholic child wonder why her familiar hymns to Mary were omitted?

I ask this because I'm 100% sure that the 'traditional hymns' you have in mind are CoE ones or hymns associated with some other protestant tradition, that might have different words for RCs or even for different protestant denominations, or might be completely unknown entities to various branches of Christianity.

What specific 'traditional hymns' should 'integrated' people know, and why should integrated Muslims, Jews, or believers in other religions know hymns associated with a specific Christian denomination?

What about British Catholics? They've always been around despite the Reformation and subsequent persecutions.

What do you mean by 'integrated'?

Do you ever have the children sing 'bangers' associated with Catholicism?

My daughter was definitely listening to the words she was singing. She had a lot of questions after. Which is of course fine as I’ve chosen to raise her in a Christian country but it’s not true that no child will feel confused or left out because everyone is forced to participate in something for another person’s religious tradition.

we have non Jewish friends round regularly for various religious celebrations (everyone likes latkes!) but I’d never expect any of them to join in on the prayers.

the entire concept of a culturally <insert religion> country is ludicrous. Each individual must be free to choose their own religious beliefs. That a particular religion has up until that point in time dominated does not mean it should be given any preferential treatment.

Why do you think it’s disingenuous? But surely intelligence and therefore wealth is still largely am accident of birth

No one is saying anyone can’t choose a religion (well actually some people do but it’s not me) - that’s not the point of the thread though

My daughter’s school is merrily still banging out Lord of the Dance and many other great hymns in church every week. Kids from other religions and none seem to cope and it’s great fun. I would love a bit of John Barleycorn, Derby Ram, Bobby Shafto or Drunken Sailor though. I feel like when some people are arguing about whether children should do singing we’ve lost a bit of soul from the world. Also the tradition of school singing may well be why so many artists are impressed by the way UK crowds can ad hoc all join in and sing along.

Children in school.are stuck with the religion of the school though. They're not free to choose their own religious expression during school hours. They're just free to not participate in vague, watered down 'Christianity'.

I cannot fathom why on earth you'd think this is important.
Earlier on in the thread you talked about it being important "for kids across the country to know the same songs, so they can join in singing at events in both local and national events throughout their lives"
What "events" are you talking about? Outside of forced school attendance no child attends events that require hymn singing. No such things exist.
If you think communal singing has benefits and should be promoted then all week and good.. But then they can sing Bob Marley or the Kaiser Chiefs or Frank Sinatra or bloody anything quite frankly. No child or adult needs to know a set bunch of songs across the land because they will be required to sing them at some fictional national or local event that requires those songs to be sung.
Which leaves the "we're a Christian country and all kids should know Christian hymns" argument.. To that my riposte would be - that has no place in a modern secular democracy. Organised religion should stay the fucking hell out of education, politics and public life. You're free to have your beliefs but keep them to yourself ta

Nope, utterly pointless. Taught me nothing at school other than to master the art of pretending to do something whilst not actually doing it and thinking about something else.

Where I grew up Muslim families seem to actively choose the more religious CofE schools, no idea if this is usual. I'm guessing they preferred a religious ethos even if it wasn't their own.

You want to pick Christian hymns among the multitude of sons that could be used for your concept of communal singing. That prioritizes one religion over others or none.

This is a bit wow, is it not ?

In this thread, correct me if I am wrong.

You have stated you are not Christian.

You have suggested that Christianity is a bit bonkers, and put forward an incorrect theory about where it came from.

You bemoan the falling numbers of church goers. Presumably C 0f E because you appear to be set to that by default.

And although you are not a Christian, you think a child not doing religious things at school indicates "unfit parents"

I am confused.

I am atheist. However, I am happy for Jesus to pop in and have his say :-)

Mat 6:5 -6: " And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. " ( KJV)

So there is a direct instruction from the man himself, don't pray in public, do it in private.

Are Hymns not prayers ?

My child knows why we celebrate Christmas. She knows that a winter festival of light around the solstice is extremely common. She understands that makes sense because to pre-modern cultures, this would have been a time that was terrifying with an increased risk of death during the winter. A festival focused on family, warmth, and light helps people.

she also knows that in many regions these festivals became interwoven with the Christian faith and eventually became the modern Christmas celebration.

whatever wrapper an individual puts on their version of the winter holiday is largely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if Christmas is the birth of Christ or just a day with presents and family at this point. Everyone can have their own meaning.

Ultimately It is still just the start of winter when scared people warm themselves against winter.

Well…..they could always try to sneak in a belt of ‘Come Out Ye Black and Tans’ 😹

That is one of the most small-minded, insular and morally-deficient takes I have read on here.

But well done for making so explicit that nobody should give a hoot about your wider opinions.

I hardly think you are making a serious argument, that’s all.
I can see what brought the topic to mind (the historical organising of society according to a caste system, and declaring this to be the will and the law of God, and all this being reflected in the verse of a hymn), but my shortish answer is that a great deal of other things which dictate the course of a life are mere accidents of birth too, and access to wealth (through inborn talents) isn't the only measure to apply.
There is beauty, robust (or poor) health, disposition, country/latitude of one’s birthplace, character of one’s parents, sporting prowess, musical genius, and so on and so forth.
On top of any of these advantages, there is chance. The brilliant Maths student of 15 might be run over by a double decker bus, while the schoolmate who skives off every other day and still cannot write his name lives to be 90.

Honestly, it’s probably all this kind of shite, just as much as superstition about next year’s crops and the dance of the stars which created religions in the first place.
We needed something abstract and ineffable on which to pin blame. ‘God works in mysterious ways’ is made for explaining the bus crashing into the future Nobel-star mathematician, and that other lad winning the EuroMillions Lottery at thirty and never needing to life a finger for the next sixty years.

(I think the faults with this inevitable inequality are owing to capitalism and its distortions, anyway)

Oh I’ve read much more worrisome things on here. I don’t think it’s small minded to suggest that parents who deliberately exclude a child from part of their education, purposefully differentiate their child within school because of their personal philosophy are bad parents. In the sane way I would say a Christian scientist parent who excludes their child from talks on health is a bad parent.

i find it rather pathetic that you are trying to say no one should give two hoots about a different opinion. Presumably you would be happy to differentiate you child and limit their education to make sure your personal philosophy wasn’t challenged. Why would a parent not let their child take part in a play with their school friends

Absolutely agree with you (apart from the disingenuous part) , Religion is also important for social cohesion, control and power expansion.

So you would be ok if parents who insisted their children are exposed to religious indoctrination were accused of being bad parents ?

Yes they had to close the field for primary school bangers!

We have yet to see this explained.

France for example have strictly secular schools.

Does France have no social cohesion, or power expansion ( whatever that is).

My DD goes to a state school in an officially atheist country. Is she doomed, according to your thinking ?

No. I was in a Catholic school and now when I think back on the hymns, they were horrible.

'were you there when the crucified my lord. Erre you there when they crucified my lord. Woah. Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble tremble. Were you there when they crucified my lord.

Were you there when they nailed him to a tree.

Ad nauseum

Fucking horrific singing that at 5 years old.

Communal singing is really good but can be done just as well with folk songs and classic pop songs as with hymns. And folk songs would be a better way of connecting British children with tradition in their country.

We sang a lot of Beatles in my primary school, loved it, though I also loved the hymns but the hymns meant some children couldn't join in so missed out on the benefits of communal singing.

Yes this. My DH for instance loathes communal singing and that ia fine for him individually but that does not take away from the fact that for most people it is a beneficil experience. Research supports this.

I loathe all exercise but I wouldn't say it has no benefits and i support efforts to encourage this at school😂

In order for people to be able.to.sing communally though they have to know the same songs so they can sing them together. Popular hymns and carols are an example of this. If we stop teaching and singing these in school.we would.need ro replace them with something else. Pop music is not generally good for this as it is too bound up with what is cool and of the moment. Community singing needs songs with longevity that parents pass on to children etc. Adult versions of nursery rhymes, rhat everyone knows. Folk songs work just as well I think though.