To think all schools should teach children the old traditional hymns

[Staringintothevoid616]

Just switching between channels and Songs of Praise came on. It was a run down of the most popular school hymns.complete with recorders It brought back many memories and how important communal singing is. It doesn’t matter what your religion is, everyone should know the most popular hymns as a way of uniting society.

The puritans wanted reform... (Yes that exact word).

Ironically fewer and fewer churches sing the traditional hymns. Your average church-going Christian under forty worships in congregations where everything's guitar based and anything written before about 2010 is considered an 'oldie' (I've heard this expression used in our church for stuff written in MY lifetime 😅). There are some really good worship songs which use the lyrics and basic tunes of traditional hymns, but they very much aren't 'hymns' any more.

Then factor in the fact that many younger Christians are black or from other non-white British communities and have their own worship music traditions.

Also most of the 'All Things Bright & Beautiful' genre used in school assemblies are dreadful aesthetically and theologically and not used in churches either IME.

@Dymaxion, was it Ta-Ra-Ra Boom-De-Ay? My school used to use that, alongside Come and Praise.

I agree OP. So much so that I set up a hymn singing group for my DC and their friends and we’ve been to sing hymns in our local care home.

Why should schools teach traditional hymns when the majority of your British public have no religion?
And of course it matters what religion you are! Have you really listened to the words of some traditional hymns?
Incidentally all of learned from group hymn singing at school was my singing wasn't good enough and all my children can remember from singing hymns at school was being shouted at for not singing loud or enthusiastically enough .

Well, aside from you not being patronising at all there, which is also not at all rude, can you tell me what time in the past you think we should be revisiting?

No. The vast majority of people aren't christian. There's no such thing as "culturally christian"!

I'm atheist and it really makes me cross that because i live in a village with only one school (very common), i have no choice but to use a c of e school and the local church are incredibly pushy in school - it borders on disrespecting the parents wishes/beliefs the way they present religion as fact. I don't want any more christianity pushed on my children than already.

Immigration then?

Religion does not equal community.

It can be a form of community but a community is not reliant on religion as it's binding force. The idea it does it strange.

A community can be a common interest, a common gathering, or a common place you live in.

The fragmentation we see ATM is largely an economic one - with fractures building along lines of poverty, inequality and a sense of injustice. These would exist even if everyone sang "he's got the world world in his hands'.

You have people who live very different lives who are British Christians who struggle to talk to other British Christians because of socio/economic gulfs.

I'm Scots, educated in Scotland, and I felt exactly the same way about having compulsory CoS worship foisted upon me. Protests were ignored, I was threatened with punishment for asking to be excused.

I am similarly not a Christian, never have been, I don't identify in any way with Christian practice or culture, so I always felt aggrieved at being regarded as Christian by default. I felt exactly the same as you with regard to "us", as hearing that only ever made me feel "but I am not a Christian!".

As for the documented positives of communal signing; well that might be relevant on a macro scale, but unfortunately if it's compulsory you also immediately scoop up all the children like me. All it did was make me angry and miserable at the time, and resentful for the remainder of my life. The notion of it being necessary to facilitate "communal singing" at public events just makes me laugh, as that's the one thing that would guarantee I don't attend.

Also a point about this "Christian culture" tripe. Yes, it's undoubtedly the case that Christianity is interwoven in UK laws, art etc, but this is yet another example of how Christianity attempts to monopolise everything. Law, "culture", art, morality all predate Christianity. What is now the UK did not have a total absence of these things prior to the arrival of Christianity. Christianity co-opted them for the most part and elbowed a lot of the pre-existing culture out of the way.

As for the laughable comment about "Do you not want children to know why we celebrate Christmas?" Well, for a start, some of "us" don't celebrate Christmas. I suspect there is no interest though in explaining why "Christmas" is just a continuation of Pagan tradition that Christianity co-opted and muscled out of the way. For a more concise answer, no, I don't believe the religious Christian elements are particularly relevant. If children are not Christian (and there is no such thing as a religious child, just children who have been immersed in religion by adults),then all they need to know is that it's rooted in pagan tradition and some people still observe it.

I LOVED singing the songs in Come and Praise as a kid. And although my mother was vehemently anti Christian........ we always had Songs of Praise on the tv, Sunday teatimes. Happy memories. I feel sad kids dont have that experience (although presumably the other experiences they have instead will be just as memorable to them when they grow up. Warm fuzzy feels etc)

Bing Videos

"And how dismissive of actual Christianity is it to regard the sacred songs as a bit of a societal sticking plaster where the actual meaning is pretty much irrelevant?"

This.

Multiculturalism is destructive to society @Staringintothevoid616 ? Oh for fuck's sake. Come and visit my kids' London primary school, with families from all over the place (about a third of the pupils there are Muslim) and a lovely warm welcoming place.
Come on International Day and see the kids in cute costumes (including little Japanese kids in kimonos) mixed up with those in football kits or who are wearing 'colours of any flag', i.e. whatever own clothes they fancy.
Come to the summer fete which has the best food stalls - Arabic, South Asian, Hispanic, Japanese, plus the barbecue!
Or come to the Year 6 play and listen to them having fun singing together, even if it's not approved traditional hymns.
Do you know one of the lovely things about kids? They are open-minded. Try it.

So if you think you are factually correct why come here for opinions. Cultural identity is not static and the identity of the UK is not currently based in Christianity although historically it was.

What does culturally Christian mean? Sexist? Homophobic? I don’t recognise it in terms of my family and friends. We are no more culturally Christian than we are culturally Hindu or Buddhist.

Also op don't you realise most schools do a standard repertoire of secular songs that are familiar to far more children. Cauliflowers fluffy etc. You are thinking back to a time when more children were churchgoers and christians hymns were familiar, these days most childrem don't know any of those hymns but there are secular songs that are widespread which most children know. I'd far rather we focused on these than religious songs.

It’s not irreverent at all, the purpose of any religion is to hold society together. Yes, the hymns have been falling out of favour
in education, yet here we are needing something to hold us back together. I think communal singing of hymns would be ideal.

The tunes might alter but most are based on texts/stories/concepts 1000s of years old.

No thanks. We're not religious and chose a school that is not religious. Feel free to have your beliefs, but keep them away from the state and from me!

Just asked my son- he’s never heard of a song called “cauliflowers fluffy” are you suggesting we slit it in on the next Remembrance service? Or is it about Christmas Dinner so maybe a rendition from Kings???

She doesn't even seem to have any strong belief in practising Christianity. I just think she objects to immigrants and their customs.

I’m not a Christian, what beliefs are you thinking I have?

That's not the purpose of any religion. Why do you think that?

And often of a particular denomination. The hymns that we sang at my Catholic school are very different from the hymns that friends of other denominations sang so which denomination gets to choose the “universal” songs?

See my post above this one.

Hymns tend to be religious as it is sung in church but songs don't have to be. However I think you can't beat the old Christian hymns from school. It is telling that even many atheists still enjoy singing them. James Partridge is quite popular and many non believers sing along.