To say: Women, stop marrying down.

[MarriedUpMindset]

Too many women are marrying men with less ambition, less emotional intelligence, less income or less stability, and calling it “love” or “potential.” Then they carry the emotional labour, the life admin, the income gap, the household mental load and quietly burn out while trying to stay “grateful.”

I’m not saying you need a millionaire. I’m saying stop being the upgrade. Stop settling for men who see your strength and success as something to lean on, not rise to.

You don’t need to mother him, teach him how to communicate or drag him toward adulthood. If he’s not already moving through life with direction, respect and maturity, why are you tying yourself to that?

AIBU to think a lot of women’s relationship problems would disappear overnight if they just stopped marrying down?

Does love conquer a man leaving his wife to do everything around the house, everything for the kids whilst also working etc? This is the kind of treatment we read about on here all the time. Being in love with him is not enough - if he truly loved her back then he’d be more considerate.

Sorry you are going through that.

I don't think its true for all men with ambition but certainly I know a fair few who are very selfish, workaholics etc

Being a SAHP isn’t marrying down. Raising children is work - emotional, physical and logistical. What I meant was the mismatch where one partner is consistently under-functioning in every area - ambition, responsibility, emotional labour, communication, accountability. A SAHP who contributes fully to the family isn’t the problem, an adult who refuses to contribute anywhere is.

Also the OP: "less income"

Men have been doing it forever….

I'd do the same and have done similar in the past. Right from the outset of my relationship with DH (38 years ago), I was very clear as to boundaries and expectations. He was under no misapprehensions as to what I required from a partner/future husband. Thankfully, he rose to the challenge. When we first got married and moved in together, there were a few "bumps" in the road such as him getting home from work at the agreed time (and if not, telling me as soon as he knew he'd be late), not keeping the bathroom clean, not washing up, etc. I didn't throw things around nor lose my temper, but I made it abundantly clear it was not acceptable behaviour. He soon "learned" to share the tasks and be reliable etc.

That's exactly where my first serious boyfriend went wrong. He didn't respect my boundaries (tried to do intimate things I wasn't ready for so early on), often unreliable (i.e. not turning up when we'd agreed to go out together etc., and not bothering to let me know etc). He didn't last more than 3 months and I kicked him into touch before we got any more serious. Funny thing was he really couldn't understand what he'd done wrong - he had no self awareness at all that if he'd agreed something then he had to follow that through.

Completely agree. I never wanted to take on a "project" . One of my first serious boyfriends, me 21, him about 24, spent a lot of time lazing about, took drugs quite a lot, had very little initiative and never really wanted to go anywhere. After I moved on, his next girlfriend got him exercising, tidied up his room, don't know if she did anything about the drugs - he married her. I would never have wanted to be with someone longterm that I had to chivvy into behaving like an adult.

Is it ok for men to marry down?

I agree, I married down in so many respects (couldn't see it at the time, I was raised to see only one kind of man as a potential husband and never to expect better).
I have drummed it into my daughter to have a much higher bar than me and I have drummed it into my son to be the higher bar for his future partner!

Hell, neither would I.
Wish to goodness that we’d encouraged our youngest to learn a trade as an apprentice instead of running up debt earning his first class degree, which qualifies him for a niche industry.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I think a lot of people get together when they're young and the emotional maturity, ambition and stability are about the same. Then the women grow up and the men stay the same. I doubt most women in unhappy marriages knew what their husbands would grow into when they married them.

Yes, that's how I read it.

YABU or else who is going to marry my sons 😅. God knows I’ve tried to chivvy them - my last hope is a nice girl to take them off my hands

Are we saying it's OK for men to marry women with less ambition and emotional intelligence? Maybe the ideal is total equality but that's probably pretty rare.

There are plenty of "more" mature lads around in their late teens and early 20s. They're not all immature children.

Well that would be lovely if true, but it takes both partners to know what love actually means.

Yes. Aren't women totally their own worst enemy? Women should know that it's unacceptable to make mistakes or have life pan out in a way that their younger self could not forsee. Everyone knows the tiny signs to watch out for and ruthlessly act on. Honestly, of course they only have themselves to blame for someone else's behaviour. Then they have the audacity to get upset and seek advice. They should just shut up and accept their silly womaness. (Don't get me started on the women with low self esteem. Why don't they just grow some? I've got it. It's not hard to have self esteem.)

Luckily, I am not that sort of woman. I am the superior type who makes corrects decisions everytime.

Trouble is, a lot of the time, the signs are glaringly obvious and the woman is choosing to ignore them in hope and expectation that they can change the man. Yes, I know sometimes the man hides his true self or changes negatively over time, but in my experience from myself, friends, workmates, family, etc., most of the time, the "signs" were flashing red neon warning lights from the outset.

It isn't what they do, it's what they are like as a person imo. Marry for love, kindness, consideration and respect which goes both ways.

It wouldn’t BE my definition of marrying up - it isn’t just earning potential. That man sounds like an absolute twat.

I don’t know if I married “up” as such but I certainly didn’t marry somebody who didn’t respect me and my career (we have mostly earned fairly similar amounts, I earn slightly more now).

Yes, I'm sure there are ambitious men who support their partners.

It's not been my experience generally - either personally, or among my female friends, or amongst my male colleagues (more than one of whom has gleefully said that they take late meetings because then they'll get home too late to do bedtime for instance)

Perhaps it's the circles I move in.

I have plenty of ambition, but I'm also able to balance others needs (eg. my children), and it's not endless. I have a goal (which I am very close to meeting) and then I will switch tracks to doing what I want, rather than what I need. My ex doesn't have that because he hasn't done any planning (that was my responsibility). My other exes similarly just blew along without a final plan.

If I have a partner again, it will be someone independent, who knows what they want (and ideally has basically achieved it). I'm not being someone's general dogsbody again.

Yes I get that but my point was, as I actually said, that when people get together their maturity level tends to be more equal. The imbalance comes with time.

A lot of the problems women on MN have comes from them ‘marrying up’. The male partner earns a lot more, has more assets. The woman’s career suffers because it’s nowhere near as important to the household income so she is default parent with a PT job, often beneath her qualification levels.

She can’t afford to leave him if she needs or wants to. If they do split, she has a massive drop in living standards, and half a house she can’t afford and half a pension in 25 years isn’t much use to her.

I genuinely think for the majority of people financially equal relationships are best. Both piss-poor, both well-off, or both just fine.

It’s a different matter if women are marrying men who are simply not good enough for them, because they are unkind or incompetent. That’s a poor choice and can happen at any income level.

Yes it’s when the man isn’t doing his bit. Isn’t providing whether it be financially or emotionally etc etc as much as the woman at home is.

So when you said we shouldn't marry someone with " less ambition, less emotional intelligence, less income or less stability" you actually meant we shouldn't marry "someone who consistently under functions in every area".

Got it 👍🏻