Fiancé asking for a prenup

[Aquea]

Fiancé and I have had a relatively short relationship. We’ve only been together for two years. I basically had to make it very clear that I would not be having children without being married. Just for legal protection. Got a bit of push back on that in the early days but I did say that marriage was a non negotiable for me and if that wasn’t for fiance then he and I should part ways.

Anyway, now we are engaged. Fiancé has asked I sign a prenup. Fiancé has his own successful business. We’re not talking a champagne lifestyle but he is comfortable enough and owns several assets. His business is fairly large - employs 35 people. But the margins are small and the overheads are massive.

I don’t have an issue in some regards as I’m certainly not marrying for the sake of money alone. I plan to carry on working FT.

But the actual concept is extremely cynical and unromantic. It’s really made me feel shit. Like I can’t be trusted. I’m kind of sick of indirectly having to convince fiancé that I am good person to marry.

We plan to have children.

it just feels like it’s one thing after another. Ie having to explain my reasoning for wanting to get married and now a prenup. The path to being engaged just seems already so negotiated.

You're saying yourself that the needs of children negate the prenup.

Obviously the OP should negotiate the best terms she can for herself.

Hi OP, if any discussion with your fiance makes you feel sick to your stomach I think you know your true feelings about the future of this. Imagine something coming up in the future you don't agree on after you've had children. I would politely retreat from this man, there's someone out there that is more deserving of your love.

He didn’t want to get married but you have forced the issue by refusing to have children otherwise - maybe he didn’t want to get married because he wanted to protect his business. Which is fine. I would never recommend to a higher earning woman or man for that matter to get married unless you put in place measures to protect yourself financially. He’s being sensible. You’ve just had your nose put out of joint because he has reacted to your baby negotiation with a negotiation of his own

I don't even think pre nups are valid in the UK. The second you are married, all the assets are shared.

You want to get married for "legal protection" by that you mean if you have children and it doesn't work out you want to take his money. You say in the same breath you want to work full-time, so apart from mat leave which you only get up to a year for anyway why would you need to take this man's assets because you took a year out to have a baby? He built his business before he even met you, so I'm with him wanting to protect that. He could pay into your pension for a year and cover more bills while you are off, you could even take less time off/do shared maternity/paternity if your career is important.

You are saying he is unromantic for wanting legal protection, yet you want to get married for legal protection, why is it not ok to want to protect his existing assets? If I was in his position with a business and assets and got married after a very short relationship you'd bet I would be protecting what I had worked for.

I'm with him on this, only I wouldn't get married in the first place in his position.

No, I’m saying that if a prenup doesn’t make adequate provision for children, then the child-related provisions won’t be enforced by the courts, which would then fall back onto the normal provisions applicable on divorce. Welfare and needs of the children being paramount. As a result, prenups are predominantly there to determine the division of assets as between the adults. But even then, the terms have to be fair, and the other criteria I referred to below also have to be followed.

No, totally incorrect on both counts. There is a presumption the prenup will be upheld unless it’s manifestly unfair, which is quite hard to establish and usually involves going to court.

And no, we don’t have community of property so the second you marry, assets are not all shared. Courts will now separate assets into matrimonial and non-matrimonial, meaning inheritance or assets brought into the marriage. While non-matrimonial assets can be used to meet needs, there is no principle that they are to be shared equally at all.

So hubby and I had a prenup- which is no longer valid as we have had a child- the clauses within our prenup said it had to be updated after 5 years. We were also told by the solicitor when we had a child it wouldn't be valid anyway.... We have been married for 7 years

@Aquea i would definitely consider a pre marriage course to discuss such topics as finances. I am also of the "no kids without marriage " type but have nothing against people setting out ther positions and protecting accrued assets before they marry .....but as everyone knows, children complicate things financially and relationship wise .If he is a typical self employed company owner,there are certain traits that can go along with this and wife and kids aren't always the priority. You both need to be on the same page and have the same values and ideas around what a successful marriage and raising kids looks like.

I agree with this. Marriage is about protection and commitments, and this sounds like, although it has obviously rubbed both of you up the wrong way, an opportunity to sit down and have the kinds of discussions that people SHOULD have before they get married, if they were not so blinded by the hearts and roses.

marriage is a contract, perhaps the most important one that anyone can make, and you wouldnt go into any other contract without discussing and tying down the finer details in writing. this at least gives you the opportunity to get what both of you understand and expect from the situation - how your partnership will look in the future - will money be pooled and you both have access, will you be working after kids, will he build your pension if you take time out (if he is willing to sign that, which financially in business is a way to offset some tax breaks - then it does show a commitment to the long haul)

its not romantic, but it is sensible. it is ultimately supposed to be a contract for life.

Op, the more i read your updates, the more I wonder why you are pushing for this marriage?

I see both sides though I may see one side more than the other but one thing my aunt said when she was talking to my cousin when I was very young (time & life have proven her words to be true) is 'It shouldn't be this hard'.

I’ve voted YABU because two years really isn’t that long to know someone, and it’s not unreasonable for him to want to protect his assets just as you would like the protection of marriage. I would be irritated by the fact that he only seemed to be prepared to get married because you wouldn't have children without it. But if you both really love each other this should not be a deal breaker.

The real test is this: is he willing to put in writing that if you separate/ divorce he will make sure you and the children have a reasonable home, and that he will cover a reasonable share of the costs of raising them right through to university or apprenticeships, not just the tiny amounts the CSA chases. Divorce does not give him a free pass to leave you carrying both the emotional and financial load. You also need something in the prenup about maternity leave. You do not need unlimited access to his money, but you do need reasonable access to joint funds without having to ask permission for every small thing. The same applies if you both agree it makes sense for you to stay at home for a couple of years when the children are young.

It is also worth thinking about long term security for you. That could be buying into the mortgage over time so you build some equity, or keeping a rental property or a savings pot as your own escape fund so you are not left trapped if things ever change. A fair prenup should make sure both of you have a route to financial independence if the relationship ends.

What counts as reasonable will vary, and it is probably worth a separate thread. so you can ask advice from people who have been in this position. The aim is not to take advantage of him, it is simply to make sure you are not left vulnerable. He is right to want to protect what he has, but pregnancy and child rearing have a real impact on women in terms of career choices, earning potential, pension contributions and long term financial security. A good prenup recognises that and shares those risks fairly.

It isn't romantic and it is work but insurance policies never are. They are to ensure the heart doesn't screw over the head.

Not romantic but sensible. A good marriage has much in common with a good business partnership so I would try and think clearly and not let blind emotion be influencing your thinking OP.
If either of my kids had significant assets I’d be encouraging them to do the same.

You want to get married to protect yourself. Your fiancé wants the same with a prenup. Yet its coming across as if you are reasonable and he isn't. You can't have it all your way.

Do you have any idea what is even in it yet? You say he wants to protect his business, is that all? Or will it cover other things?

Get legal advise, make sure it has a provision for children and what might happen if you are a stay at home parent etc.

I think you have bigger issues than simply not agreeing on the prenup.

Despite many cogent arguments on here for your fiancé's position, personally I see marriage as a commitment first and foremost that is about love and this is especially true when you are young but then I wouldn't be with someone that values possessions/assets more than the love aspect.

Then he doesn’t get to have a wife or children, and most likely a partner unless he can find one happy to be childless. So no children for him. You don’t dump all of the risks on a pregnant woman.

Why don’t you just get one? You want marriage to protect you in the event of a split and so does he. Why don’t you get one that completely ring fences his business in the event of a split but everything else is 50/50 down the middle. Unless you want to take the business too?

It feels like you have pushed the marriage thing for your security but he isn’t allowed a contract to protect him??

I'm with you op. It would leave a bitter taste. I would feel that there was no trust there and that everything he does work-wise is for his own benefit and not for building a life with a family. It's shown you an aspect of him. Don't ignore it. It might be fine or it might be that he's not the right person for you.

I’m of thr share everything school of thought once married. What happens if you have children and it affects your earning power (due to yours or the children’s health)? Or you want to go part time to spend more time with any children. That will have a knock on effect for your earnings and pension. Is he going to have you begging for money and insist on a fifty fifty split of money and assets at all times?
it all sounds too transactional and the last post when it sounds as if he might try to choose a solicitor for you would have me running for the hills!
Please trust your gut feeling with this one. I haven’t sensed any good old fashioned love and romance! I’d put him back and move on.
At the the very least find out if you say no to a pre-nup there would be no marriage?

Feels like such a double standard.

You want marriage to protect yourself in case you split up.

He wants a pre nup to protect his assets in case you split up.

You are outraged because it’s not romantic and you feel HE has an obligation to support you if you have children. (Failing to understand here why you wouldn’t be able to work etc)

A coerced engagement isn’t very romantic either.

Sounds like a cake and eat it situation, really. You want all the legal protections marriage offers, etc., but are not willing to extend them to him on a business he's built, and if he employs 35 people, that's no small operation, yes, it's a small company compared to Tesco but if he's built this from the ground up, I can see why he wants some protection.

Like most of these types of questions, as long as you both have legal advice, there should be no issues, as you'll ask for a sunset clause to be drafted into the contract.

I would get a shit hot solicitor.

If you still want to marry him.

You have to negotiate division of assets you build together, what if the majority of childcare falls on you, sick days, picking up from school, whilst he is happily building up his untouchable business?

Do you both want children?

He should keep what he builds up perhaps before children but what afterwards?

He's right you should get a shit hot lawyer.

It's very different if you start a marriage on equal footing, want the same things, build up everything together, and you know you need to get married for protection, he also knows he could lose more than is sustainable or even worth it for him.

If you have children they need protecting. You need to know that if you do divorce, because this is what this is all about, that it won't just be the basic child maintenance, that he will fund their schooling, and they will be entitled to assets you both build up.

This is sensible, practical, everyone knows where they stand financially, and hopefully you can come out with a legally bound document that is fair and protects you both and any subsequent children.

And if you aren't happy with anything you can walk away, as can he. I am not sure he is fully taking into account the full extent of what you can include in this document but he will find out in time.

Isn't it better if you do get married, that you aren't thinking, he might screw me over here and he isn't thinking, fuck I might lose my business on your wedding day?

I would have the meeting and walk into it with your eyes wide open. A good solicitor will objectively ask fair and relevant questions you haven't considered

His reaction to what would be considered a reasonable and amicable divorce conditions, whether he expects you to become a SAHM, what he considers [and you] reasonable child maintenance and custody, how you will provide for each other towards retirement if your respective financial situations or health changes. That will tell you whether or not this is a relationship worth having.

Don't ignore your feelings!

I agree with you OP, it's not ideal. Having said that, I'd be looking at the bigger picture. Is he kind, loving, empathic in other ways or is this just an indication of how transactional he sees the relationship? Is this part of a pattern or not? If you'll be working full time, will he take on 50% of the childcare, housework and mental load (even if he earns more)?

Having been with self employed men (and have friends in a similar boat), in my experience, they end up working a lot and it all becomes a bit non-negotiable ("it's for my business, I have to work late/weekends... etc") that the mum ends up having to work around, spend weekends alone, never get time for themselves etc. I would worry you may end up doing 95% of the childcare/house stuff around his business needs for a business that is always only ever "his". Maybe he has all that sorted and has a good work/life balance but it's worth checking. What would happen if his business really took off and he had to work crazy hours?

Also, don't underestimate the push to be a SAHM or go PT. DC with SEN, illnesses from nursery, struggling to leave your DC (it's so hard at first) can all push you towards a decision you don't imagine making prior to having children. Will he pay (towards or for depending on your relative incomes) a nanny for example which should make things easier. Or take care of some nursery drop offs and collections?

The prenup is to protect his business but what about other security for you and DC? What will be left to split after the business is excluded? I'd be looking at what finance you'd need if you split and had DC eg is there enough for you to have a house outright in your current area? You could also get written in what would happen if you ended up having to be a SAHM or go PT (eg you had a disabled child, you became disabled etc). He's being fairly cold hearted and thinking with his head on this and you need to as well.

Generally I'd take some time to think through the above and then decide whether you actually want to be with him or if this cool head is part of a pattern of selfishness.