Fiancé asking for a prenup

[Aquea]

Fiancé and I have had a relatively short relationship. We’ve only been together for two years. I basically had to make it very clear that I would not be having children without being married. Just for legal protection. Got a bit of push back on that in the early days but I did say that marriage was a non negotiable for me and if that wasn’t for fiance then he and I should part ways.

Anyway, now we are engaged. Fiancé has asked I sign a prenup. Fiancé has his own successful business. We’re not talking a champagne lifestyle but he is comfortable enough and owns several assets. His business is fairly large - employs 35 people. But the margins are small and the overheads are massive.

I don’t have an issue in some regards as I’m certainly not marrying for the sake of money alone. I plan to carry on working FT.

But the actual concept is extremely cynical and unromantic. It’s really made me feel shit. Like I can’t be trusted. I’m kind of sick of indirectly having to convince fiancé that I am good person to marry.

We plan to have children.

it just feels like it’s one thing after another. Ie having to explain my reasoning for wanting to get married and now a prenup. The path to being engaged just seems already so negotiated.

The courts can decide on a different financial settlement and a prenup is not directly enforceable. However, since Radmacher vs Granatino, the courts will follow the provisions of a prenup that meets the criteria unless it is manifestly unfair in the current circumstances, e.g. there are children of the marriage and the prenup fails to make any provision for them.

Re OP's situation, I am with those posters who point out that she wanted the legal protection of being married but is now upset that he wants the legal protection of a prenup. For someone in his position (owner of a successful small business), a prenup makes sense, just as being married before having children makes sense for OP.

You have completely left out and bypassed the risks to the women, and it really is becoming old and boring.

It’s well researched that women take a hit on both their careers and pensions, not to mention the toll on their bodies and emotional landscape having babies. Some never recover and have permanent injuries, others struggle with poorly babies. It’s not always a case of skipping back to full time work. Who does everything else? The childcare, housework etc.

Time and again we see men just walking away from their responsibilities and children, at best paying the absolute bare minimum CM and leaving it all to the mothers to raise the children single handed.

It’s an even bleaker picture with children and babies with disabilities, illness and special needs.

Why on earth would any woman sign up to this without even having as a bare minimum her children’s housing and needs covered should it all go wrong?

It’s utter madness. Unless she is on a rock star salary with help to match there is no way any woman should agree to such arrangements, they also scupper any chance of true security and love.

Those that are unmarried are in a worse situation, and this should be avoided at all costs. The risks are substantial even if you are very well paid, it only takes one child to be born disabled or become so through an accident and you are screwed. The social care in this country is on its knees.

I don't think your fiancé is being unreasonable. He's built up a business, and doesn't want to lose half of it, should you divorce. You want financial protection for yourself and children through marriage, he wants to make sure his business is protected through divorce. None of it is particularly romantic and lovey-dovey. Your partner wants children, and knows in order to have children, he needs to marry you. It appears to me that he's being pushed into marriage, rather than because he actually wants too. That would worry me, because it's not a great basis for marriage, if one party feels obligated, rather than because they genuinely want too.

In the UK they're not worth the paper they're written on. He can insist, and you can sign it, but the reality is that once kids come along and you've been married for a few years, the prenup is effectively worthless.

I used to be against prenups, but now I'm older and seen some very unexpected, nasty and expensive divorces I'm not against them (although not sure how enforceable they are).

If he'd been desperate to marry you would you still be upset about the prenup? I do feel from reading this that he didn't really want to get engaged at all, and that could be the real problem. Are you OK with a practical marriage (nothing wrong with it if you are), or need to know your spouse couldn't wait to marry you?

I was engaged to someone I had to beg to propose. The whole situation made me very depressed and damaged my confidence a lot. I always felt like he wasn't sure I was good enough. It affected the power dynamics of the relationship a lot too, because I was always going along with what he wanted and trying to earn his proposal by being a perfect girlfriend. I loved him so much, but it wasn't a healthy dynamic at all in hindsight. I'd encourage you to think carefully about what you want, and whether the prenup is a sign of other issues that need addressing.

I think it's entirely sensible to want to be married before having children. As I see it this isn't just about legal protections for the wife - it's about a man wanting to commit to being a father. What are his views and expectations around fatherhood? That includes things like supporting you whilst on maternity leave, paying towards childcare. You also need to consider if you may decide you want to work part time after children. Most childless people have no idea what life is like once those children are in your life - it is a huge life change - time before children and time after. Many new mothers find they fall in love with their baby and hate the thought of returning to work and leaving their baby with carers. There is good reason to have many concerns about nurseries and the quality of staff they employ (plenty of dreadful cases in the news). Working full time with small children is exhausting (I never did it for this reason), getting up early to rush to nursery for drop off, rush to work, rush back to nursery for scheduled pick up time, then a full shift at home of bedtime routine, supper, housework. All on top of a night of broken sleep.

Equally he has a business and is responsible for the employment of 35 people. They, as well as him, deserve protection.

I should go along with seeing that solicitor, it's probably a good idea for you both to see someone to really talk through how you see married life and parenthood panning out. I'm sure I've heard of pre-marriage counselling, not sure where you find such a person, but it would be a good idea to have joint discussions around this.

Once you are both happy then you can let go of the worries and let romance and wedding planning take over.

This thread is really kicking off so you'll have a lot of opinions to sift through @Aquea

Like i said upthread....

Its very easy for people to say "Bin him!" and then they kiss their Dh goodbye and drop the kids wherever and go about their day.
It's your LIFE.

I would see a counsellor/ get external advice as you sound conflicted / at a crossroads. I also think you have maybe overly "romanric notions" its easy to not give a shit if you are poor / have no assets / your family money is locked in a trust.

I know people with prenups who are happily married. It happens.

im guessing here but... You want kids within a marriage (fair), he probably wants a slower timeline but is moving up his timeline to accomodate your biological reality (thats also kinda fair).

IF... you DO want children and you are 30-35 and you dont want to go via sperm donor and parent alone - very honestly your window is closing.

I work in contracting - "the contract" is the fail safe for both parties and negotiating and agreeing it can be hard / difficult and testing. Once in place, the "relationship" come back into play and the contract is very very infrequently called upon.

Uk courts frown upon highly disparate prenups and can disregard them. Fair provision midt be made for you in it. He wont be able.to say "i keep all my stuff".

your "Best alternative to a negotiated agreement" (BATNA) is possibly leaving and finding a new partner but I think you should only even consider that after "negotiating best possible terms"

Unpopular opinion(?)
Even if you cant get the prenup terms you want (assuming he's a broadly.decent man and genetically fit) if you are over 30 and want kids... i think if you get your kids and are able to raise them in a secure partnership for at least first 2 years of all childrens lives (i find this period the hardest) is prob worth it anyway....
🤷🏻‍♀️

But do you put in equally? Are your salaries equal or does he earn more out of his business?

What will happen when you're on Mat leave? How soon will he expect you to return to work? Will you still have to pay equally into the pot? Who will fund childcare?

Pension provision?

Is your spending money equal?

Have you discussed the above?

Who owns your home?

Just to add, I wouldn't want to marry or have children with someone who wasn't really keen to be a father. Laying down conditions for marriage is one thing but a real desire to be a father and embark on family life is what it is all about.

I think this is a sign you’re rushing into marriage before you’re both ready.

Marriage and children are a lifelong legal and financial commitment. If you need to sign contracts to protect yourselves from those commitments, you aren’t ready to be married.

So you do not want a pre nup to protect yourself financially
Same as your BF

Aquea · Today 00:37
Fiancé and I ended up discussing finding a solicitor for me over dinner today. And it just made me feel sick to my stomach.

Is that because he didn't sleep walk into giving you ''legal protection''. Now you've got the proposal but maybe not a pot of gold if it goes belly up. Not surprised you feel sick. Didn't go how you wanted did it?

You're planning a divorce that protects his current position and that makes you feel sick? Perhaps you ought to look at why not being able to fleece him for his pre existing assets in the future is so unpalatable to you.

I think two years is a short relationship. What is the rush OP. Are you able to wait another couple of years to marry? Pre-nups can be used in the UK. I think they are a great idea and I’d want one if I were the OPs partner.

I suspect he doesn't really want to get married. Sorry @Aquea

If you have to push him this hard then he's got some serious doubts.

He's very sensible to get a prenup for his business and its possible he's getting advice from another source.

I don't think this situation will work out long term. It really shouldn't be this hard if you both want to spend the rest of your life together.

Tell me you don't know about divorce and family courts without telling me you don't know about divorce and family courts.

I really hope you're not involved in the legal profession.

A lot of men on this thread op. Watch out for very poor advice.

that is not unreasonable.

But you should never sign a pre-nup (or any contract) that doesn’t offer benefits to both (all) parties.

there was a similar thread recently, so I copy pasted the comment I wrote back then:

Where I’m from pre-nups can (and are) legally binding (as long as the necessary legal limits re content, the procedural legalities etc. are all properly observed). So this is my perspective on this:
A contract should benefit both (or all) parties involved.
Party A therefore should not agree to a contract that only protects Party B. That is non-sensical, completely one-sided and not a particularly auspicious start to a marriage (imo).
Which is why you your DD needs your her own attorney (absolutely not joint representation or simply being advised by her fiancé’s attorney). You She and your her fiancé (who decided to emphasise the economic aspects of marriage) ought to compare this to a joint venture agreement. You They’re merging your their assets and financial futures and both need to be protected.

Trust your gut. Is this REALLY the man you want to spend your life with? Have children with? Be joined to forever?

Personally I’d be happy to sign but I’d see a solicitor to get them to go through it all and explain all the legal implications to check it is ‘fair’ and that there’s no hidden surprises down the road. If I had a successful business/significant assets I’d of wanted one too and I’m confident my DH would’ve been fine to sign it.
You never know what the future holds and it’s always a good idea to protect yourself. If you would be fair in the event of a divorce anyway then I don’t see why it would be a problem to sign it now so he has that legal reassurance?
just my opinion though ☺️ x

Why get married at all if you feel this level of contempt before you've entered a marriage? If you believe in assets more than the person you are marrying I don't think it is suited to you!

I would also warn you op these types of men will never support you in illness or injury either, but they will expect five star nursing and mothering for themselves should they need it.

They only care about the bottom line. In your case your ‘use’ is providing dc, but they can often dispense of women that no longer serve a purpose to them ruthlessly quickly. You need to protect yourself carefully and avoid having dc with men that are not willing to fully commit but want the benefits of a relationship.

Yes. All of this. Are you engaged (sorry, can't scroll back and see)? I would call it off, personally.

It sounds like the problem is not really the pre nup itself, but that you had to convince him into marriage and now this feels like another barrier.

My parents shared a business and couldn’t afford to get divorced, that has made me definitely want a prenup. I don’t believe in a 50/50 split because I’ve always had more assets than my partners. But it doesn’t mean I don’t want to marry or that I’m planning to divorce, just that I’ve worked hard for my livelihood and don’t want to lose it to someone who wasn’t involved and probably doesn’t like me anymore at that point.

I can understand that it could feel quite unloving considering other people’s partners are desperate to marry them. But if you look at it from a business perspective, he didn’t want to marry because of his business, but he’s changed his mind for you and is overcoming barriers by putting together paperwork that can make the marriage happen