Keeping kids in from play at lunchtime.

[0gfhty]

I wonder what people think of this. My sons school has something called "times table club" during lunch time play for one day a week. Alll children in year 4 have to go to who don't know all their times tables yet. This hasn't been communicated to the parents but it seems to be true after speaking to some other parents and children. Apparently most of the children in year 4 are in this club. I dont think the children should lose their main playtime for this and if it is most children attending then it indicates to me that their lunch time is being used to teach the curriculum. I wonder what people's views are on this? How would you complain since its more about a general practice and not just my individual child? I have found the teachers to become a little hostile and defensive in the past about anything other than praise even when being polite and approachable.

It depends on the institution. My cousin got into UCL without a maths gcse as her English lit a level result was exceptional.

I fully understand the pressure son teachers. I was one. But there are ways of teaching wothout putting unnecessary pressure on those who struggle. Teachers could campaign more to have the curriculum changed. They could refuse to comply with the testing en masse as we did once over SATs.
Your last sentence is the point. Support. Not drill so heavily with so much pressure that those with no hope of ever being able to do it feel useless and stupid.

If my child was behind in learning their times tables, I’d be pleased that the school was addressing it. They have to learn it at some point so it’s either at school or at home. Those being the options, I’d be thrilled it was being done by the school during the school day. It allows for more play time (and down time) with the family at home.

Honestly it’s just page after page of people that would moan if the kids didn’t know their timetables but don’t want to do them at home and don’t want to take advantage of the teachers and TA’s giving up their own time to help their kids. Then there’s the ones that talk about ND even though there was no mention of that in the post! And even worse the ones that talk about maths like it’s not an absolutely imperative life skill! How often do you need to multiply or divide something? Every day I would say, when shopping, working out a rough price for anything that you’re buying more than one if. It’s seriously worrying.

No way the school would say this is compulsory if OP mentioned politely that they wanted their child to play out instead, it’s literally a quick 2 minute chat with the teacher. But then we see posts about teachers not teaching well enough 😡

@Baconbuttymad so if a chef has to double a recipe don’t they need maths. Yes they can use a calculator but they need to know what function. They need to know the answer that appears is reasonable (just in case operator error). Chefs may have to order food, again maths is necessary.

Anyone earning money will need to know the amount they are paid is in line with contract, especially if you are freelance/self employed.

Science/maths will usually be required in psychologist study.

I agree there should be different level of maths available (so some form of maths paper that includes everyday use of maths, budgeting etc), not everyone needs to understand trigonometry, calculus etc but I don’t agree maths is not necessary.

And if you struggle with remembering times tables or think it is dull, I used to use things like Lego bricks to show visually how they work. So square Lego brick can show 2 x 2 =4, other bricks can demonstrate things like 4 x 2, or you can arrange a number of bricks in patterns to show other permutations

Children will be provided with an app so they can get used to doing them quickly and the format of the statutory test. And if children struggle with these then that is where intervention groups help at school. But parents need to step up.

You gotta feel sorry for teachers with this attitude. Not my problem.

Back in my time it was a mark against the parents at school if you didn't help them with spelling, and maths homework every week. You'd be singled out at collection time. By a member of staff, teacher or head and pulled aside for a little chat.

I threw up my hands once saying I don't understand the new way of doing subtraction, long division. The head said I'll teach you. Other parents said and me please. We then had two lessons after school where we sat at desks being taught how to do it.

@justasking111 I bought the book ‘maths for mum and dad’ to help us with the new methods of teaching maths when DS was at school, and both DH and I are good at maths, DH in particular being gifted in maths.

No he hasn't had a times table test before, not that I have been told about before. When he was in ks1 he had a sheet in his planner with the 2/3/5/10 time table and an email asking the parents to do this at home. Since then I have carried on with this and I thought this Would be all he needed to know until later years. He seems to know most of them except some 7 and 8s after looking at them this morning with him. Now I'm wondering what spellings he is supposed to be doing as some people have mentioned spellings. I wonder if there's a spelling test in year 4 too?

I would imagine that the teachers concerned would rather be catching up with their marking, having a break themselves, simply savouring a cuppa in the staffroom....but they have spotted a gap, and are doing what they can to fill it. Nice to be appreciated for going above and beyond.
I agree that the curriculum is overcrowded now, but the expectation of fluency in times tables is nothing new. How well I remember the flash cards pinned up in the kitchen at breakfast time. If I could remember 6x7 readily, all well and good. If I'd forgotten, I was at liberty to leave the table and look it up, but this took me away from the food......I never arrived at school hungry.

@0gfhty there isn't a statutory spellings test in Y4, spellings do form a part of Y6 SATS so they will be learning spellings through the years which will then go towards that test but will obviously help them with their reading and writing in school and in life.

Some schools will give weekly lists etc for children to learn and then test them.

Do you do school drop offs/pick ups, it might be an idea to ask for a quick chat with teacher to ask what you are meant to be doing with your DC. I would also check the school's website, it should detail the curriculum for all year groups. Some schools have a class blog or similar which may include a few sentences/photos showing what the class have been doing recently. It does sound as if your school isn't great at communication.

I am absolutely shocked that a Y4 child doesn’t know their timetables?!

what exactly are they doing for maths then? Surely everything they are learning would require that knowledge. My dc knew theirs in Y1!!
I can’t believe this is true that an entire class doesn’t know this. And HOW as a parent did you not even know or question this?

Due to my dyscalculia I use calculators for all that. I do the calculations multiple times because I can’t estimate or understand what’s reasonable. I seem to manage ok to cook stuff, order stuff, check my income and outgoings. My maths is fine. It’s my arithmetic that’s screwy so I managed to study both economics and accounting.
Yes, times tables, for those who can, make some things a bit quicker and less stressful. They are very far from essential though.

How shocked are you that this 61 year old doesn’t know them?

I'm 35 and don't know them either. Well, only the very basics. I really, really struggle with Maths and always have done.

My Year 5 son doesn't know the majority of them either and my husband is the one who helps him with them at home.

Unfortunately this attitude is pretty common amongst parents these days.

There’s no official spelling test in Y4 but most schools have a weekly spellings test and send spellings home (my kids school don’t and it’s a bit annoying actually) but all the spellings they should know are on the internet - Twinkl have spelling mats and you don’t have to pay you can just zoom in on the images. It’s a bit overwhelming if you haven’t done them before though so maybe ask the teacher to start letting you know what spellings they’re doing each week so that you can practise at home. If he knows almost all of the multiplication tables then just practise the 7’s and 8’s, the official test won’t be for another few months so you should be able to crack them by then.

Could the reason you struggle with maths be because you don't know your times tables???

Honestly, that is why it is sooooo important to learn them. It has a massive impact on all other maths learning.

This isn’t to me, but - No. Maths and arithmetic are two different things.
I’m great at maths, at the problem solving and conceptual stuff. I can tell you all day what the sum is you need to do. Can’t do the sum without a calculator. And then I do it 3 times to check.
Some. People. Can’t. Do. Tables.
learn about dyscalculia.

I've always struggled with maths, including times tables. I've wondered as an adult if I have dyscalculia because numbers still make very little sense to me.

Hopefully my son will get there in the end, especially with help from dad at home.

I know plenty about dyscalculia thanks. 😊

You clearly don't know as much as you think you do. Dyscalculia doesn't mean you can't learn times tables. It does make it more difficult, and needs different strategies but doesn't mean you can't learn.

The best way to help someone with dyscalculia learn their tables is through more practical methods - something the parent should be aware of if they have a child with dyscalculia. Things like mentioned up thread with the Lego blocks.

You don't just give up on your child because they have a special educational need. You learn how best to support your child, despite their additional needs.

Sadly, this thread has shown far too many parents do just wave their hands in despair and give up.

I am dyscalculic. I think I know more about it than someone who thinks it affects your mathematical ability.
Supoort is great. That doesn’t mean constant pressure to do something that’s both impossible (or at best extremely difficult) and also unnecessary.

Times tables are the building blocks of all the child’s future maths lessons. I’m shocked you are even worried about your kid missing out on half an hour playtime whilst the teachers give them extra tuition! Probably in the staffs lunch hour too! You are being COMPLETELY unreasonable.

No they aren’t. They are the building blocks of arithmetic.
OP May be unreasonable, but it’s not because of this.

Im sure the teachers aren't thrilled about it either...... We were told that we all had a lunchtime club each week and honestly it leaves you chasing your tail for the rest of the day.
Maybe when your child had a rapid recall of their times tables and can then feed it into their day to day maths work you'll see the benefit 👍