DP nephew and our new baby

[Girlmummyxox]

Hello

Opinions have been mixed about this so pleade be kind if im being unreasonable. I dont have much experince with autism and its my first baby. So DP nephew is 19 and severely autistic. I say severely as he relies on parents for everything, cannot look after himself and has the mind of a child. I mean no offence by any of this.

He has a bigger brother (not autisitc) and three younger cousins. My little girl is the youngest in the family by quite a bit (dp started family later in life).

Let me say first that nephew is a lovely boy. I genuinely love listening to his movie facts and hearing how passionate he is about games.

Anyway, since our little girl was born (5 months now), he has been.. i cant think of any other word, obsessed with her. Whenever we visit or meet up he has to be the person holding her. When he holds her, he rubs his face all over her and strokes her body. Ive taken her off him before because I find it all a bit creepy. A word me and DP have bickered about. His family encourage him holding her all the time and take lots of pictures of this. DP thinks its because he is unlikely to have a family of his own and they like seeing how happy and gentle he is with a baby. Whenever he gets too close I have started telling him to give her space and sometimes ive taken her back. He has started telling his mum that im giving him into trouble. He sits and just stares at her while being inches from her face. And sometimes kisses her all over, me and dp tell.him to stop. He also always tries taking her from my arms to "show her something" in another room which is usually a laser light or disco ball (she loves colours and movement) but i refuse to let him take her and go with him, while holding her. Why should I? He is a vulnerable adult. As if im letting him take her in another room, alone.
He has now started saying "does she love me??" If we say yes, he gets happy and tries rubbing faces and whispering "i love you too, pretty girl". I dont know, I feel awful as I type all of this but its weird in my opinion.

My issue? Well its crossing boundaries, also I dont want to enable behaviour and id like to set boundaries and expectations now. If my daughter came to me in a few years time telling me another adult was doing this, id be furious. Dp said he understands why I think what I think but his nephew lives in another world and means no harm. He said he doesn't feel the need to speak to his sister as it'll cause offence and what would he even say. Id like him to tell her that she needs to speak to her son about boundaries because it isn't okay.

She has gotten to the age now where she doesn't like being held all the time but this makes him annoyed as she "isn't close to him" he tries to force it until I tell him no. He doesn't like cries and will put his fingers in his ears and shouts "lalalalala" until he is ushered out of the room. They have offered to look after our daughter on so many occasions to let me and my partner go out but its just isnt going to happen.

Partner thinks im unreasonable. Am I?

Thans

A difficult topic and a hard line, but I think you're being fair, OP.
It's not as if you are forbidding all contact or never given him a chance, but that would be different.
I can see a little from his parent's perspective, but I think you are viewing this accurately and, quite rightly you want your baby girl to be safe.
You want her to be sure of her of her own boundaries, and modern research says it begins now.
You aren't demonising him, but you are supervising him when it's safe to allow him with her supervised.
This must be quite awkward in this situation and I don't relish being you.

It's irrelevant really. He shouldn't be allowed to handle the baby like that and OP has every right to dislike it and put a stop to it.

All those comparing him to a young child are totally wrong. He is a 19yr old man. A disabled man, but a man nonetheless. He needs to understand that though he may think and behave differently to many other men, he is still an adult and needs to be taught how men behave. Men can be loving and affectionate and caring but it's important that adults learn about boundaries and consent and what safe and appropriate affection looks like. If his carers are not doing this and treating him as younger than he is then they are doing him a huge disservice.

I have an autistic adult relative who adores my DC and it is A LOT. My relative hates being touched and recoils from physical affection but will not stop picking up DC and grabbing them when they're playing "for a cuddle" and "helping" them with tasks they're perfectly capable of doing independently. Relative is always trying to stroke DC's face - whether it's out of affection, "cleaning them" or "helping them sleep" (it does not help) or anything other reason. It's exhausting because although DC is old enough to say "no", "stop", "put me down", "I want Mummy" etc, and Relative does release DC, Relative does it all again 30secs later.
I don't limit contact because, despite it all, DC loves Relative and asks to visit. Thankfully, Relative's carers are on top of things, explain boundaries and consent, and enforce social rules before I do.
I think it does DC the world of good to get used to interacting with people from all walks of life and of all abilities and I can make this happen because my relative has fantastic care.

If OP's nephew is being inadequately cared for and educated then it's not a safe environment for OP's DD.

I have no experience of severe autism..would it be appropriate to give the nehew a baby doll for him to hold for when your baby doesnt want to be held.

@Girlmummyxox

When he was a child my autistic son displayed all kinds of bizarre and inappropriate behaviour which included invading other people's space by getting too close to them and rubbing his nose on them.

Those behaviours were not allowed to go unchecked either at school or at home, and as time went on and with a lot of support, my son learnt to regulate himself and behave appropriately in social situations.

The situation you describe is absolutely not OK. There is no way on earth that I would allow my son to behave like this. It is all kinds of wrong and totally inappropriate. I suspect the problem here lies entirely with the parents who have never instilled any boundaries or dealt with any unacceptable behaviour as their boy has grown up.

Your DP needs to put his big boy pants on and support you in enforcing boundaries and protecting your daughter, now not in a few years' time! He needs to tell his sister that you are both uncomfortable with the way your nephew behaves around your baby and that DD is also beginning to show signs of discomfort too.

Autism is not an excuse for allowing inappropriate unwanted behaviour. Tell DP to ask his sister if she would like an older male relative rubbing his face all over her, stroking her body and kissing her all over.

Quite frankly I would be cutting right back on the visits or letting DP go on his own.

He isn't creepy or weird he has the mentality of a child in an adult body - some children find babies fascinating

If you are uncomfortable then own it and say to them I dont feel comfortable with that and tell them what you do feel comfortable with like having her on a mat and he can lie next to her or putting her in a baby seat and h can do faces etc

Work out what makes you more comfortable rather than using contentious language

Has anyone shown him how you hold the baby...how you keep your head up and away from her face...I'm guessing he is experiencing her with all his senses and needs to be shown what to do and what not too....I wonder if he could watch videos or have a baby picture book at home and be encouraged and praised for holding the baby well when he visits? Like anyone without full capacity I wouldn't ever leave him unsupported with the baby. You protect them both by supporting him - his heart just sounds full of delight though

While I don't think it's creepy I would be worried about feeding his obsession. Autistic or not he has to learn some boundaries.

I’ll probably get flamed for this but for context not only do I have a severely ASD older teen in the family, but also work as an advisor for children with ASD across a local education authority.

I’m getting increasingly concerned by the sheer number of folks who write off behaviours they would never normally accept because they excuse the behaviours because the child ‘ has ASD’.

Thats awful. That assumes the child/ student has no capacity to learn. It feel like it’s writing them off. Even the most severe ( and I’ve worked with some very severe children) has some capacity to learn, albeit very slowly and with a lot of hard work. Our much loved own family member, now 19, is just about as severe as possible, no language and operates on minimal level, but we have worked hard to put in clear boundaries and expectations ( and it is very hard work to keep it up) because we recognise he has to live in the real world at some point and needs to have socially acceptable behaviour if he is to have any quality of life. We use augmented communication ( Picture Communication System - PECs - and lots of visual symbols and we are consistent. As a result we can - and do - take him everywhere and though it’s taken a very long time we are seeing acceptable social behaviour from him now, though I don’t at all minimise the effort involved - it’s sheer hard work. But what is the alternative? We want him to be able to live in the real world, even though we know he will never be able to live independently.

So you are right. You are not comfortable with this young man and of course this behaviour feels creepy to you, because if it was from someone else then it would be. But what happens if the family ‘normalise’ his behaviour, which they are unintentionally doing now, by thinking it’s cute? What happens if the lad meets some other baby and think this behaviour is ok, because those are the cues he is being given?

He needs to be taught that everyone needs to be listened to, especially if it’s a baby. He needs to be taught about giving people space. He needs to know it’s not ok to rub his face over her. He needs to learn she is absolutely not a toy. And he needs to know you are her mummy and it’s up to you to make the decisions for her. That’s what his family need to do to help him.

I’d be writing a Social skills story for him and reading it through daily, to help give him a script. You can look the actual rules up on line.

I’d be modelling the correct behaviour with a Teddy or doll. I’d probably write up a story, using photos , with symbols as well as the words, to help guide him, something like ‘me and baby x’ ‘. This is something ideally his family should be doing to help him.

I absolutely support you. Your daughter is rightly your concern and priority. She will undoubtedly show her true feelings as she grows. In the meantime the lad means well, but he needs to be taught what is acceptable and what is not.

If he has meltdowns ( they aren’t tantrums ) when she cries , as I’ve said in another post he can’t help that etc - but , yes I would absolutely be very alert because he could target her , without malice but she’s a baby so she could get hurt. It , of course , depends on how he acts during his meltdowns but during a meltdown the individual is heightened and there is no rational thought involved . If her crying is a trigger , then in that moment when his body is in fight or flight and he is extremely distressed he will want to stop the crying.

It’s a common trigger. I have a few students with this same trigger and whilst they are the loveliest, kindest people , I would never put them in a situation where there was a crying baby and this is involved in risk assessments when we go out into the community.

In regard to his hands over his ears etc when she cries - this cannot be about you. If you don’t like it , in the nicest way - tough. This is his response to something that feels overwhelming and uncomfortable for him and this is how he deals with it, it’s harder for him to deal with it than it is for you to see it. He has no control over it

Yes, exactly this. It's so important to understand this point.

And OP if you had an autistic child yourself, you would understand that.

I would not be comfortable with this either and I don’t think you are being unreasonable. It really doesn’t matter what others think she’s your baby and relies on you to advocate for her. If your gut says I don’t feel comfortable with this behaviour then that’s that and you don’t owe an explanation to anyone. Even practically speaking we are in winter now and there are bugs everywhere and with kissing there are things like cold sores etc to worry about with small babies too. Keep asserting your boundaries.

Articulate and regurgitating facts of interest? I have come across many like that. Obsession with particular interests is very common is people who are severely affected by autism. They might not be able to even do the most basic of things but can recite and discuss facts like nobody’s business.

Did you also see the part where OP said he relies on his parents for everything?

Wow what an awful thing to say to the OP who has every right to say who holds her baby or not. I can’t believe you’ve actually typed that out! Austism does not give anyone free pass to do anything they like! If he liked to jump in front of traffic would you let him? If he wanted to paint himself blue would you let him? No, you would do what’s necessary to keep him safe. He needs to have boundaries for his own sake too. My friend has a brother who has a mental capacity of a child after being starved of oxygen as a baby. When my friend’s daughter came along and as she got older her brothers interests in her started to get a bit intense and they recognised his adult desires were becoming a problem and kept them both safe. He was a lovely man but he couldn’t be trusted to be alone with her daughter. In his head he was about 5 years old but his body was that of a man. OP please don’t worry about your boundaries. it is creepy and obviously the nephew isn’t understanding but he needs to be kept at arms length for now. Please don’t listen to those who think you should put his feelings above your instincts as a mother.

My 15 y old DS is autistic and can be "weird". I have to be on him all the time for him to respect boundaries with his younger brother (12) whom he loves dearly. He constantly wants to pet him and tell him he loves him. To DS2 it's creepy (now when he's older) because he hates it. So I keep them separated as much as I can (different meal times etc) and I physically protect DS2s right to not be touched.

So I do understand you 100%. It's not because someone is autistic that you should let them do sometimes that makes you feel uncomfortable. I would tell nephew straight out that you don't want him cuddling your daughter. That it's only for her parents to cuddle her. And you get to make the rules because you are the mum.

I feel sorry for the boy because his parents seem to have given up on teaching him social skills. I intervene immediately if my DS is behaving inappropriately and he's pretty good with behaving correctly outside. He loves animals not babies so ofcourse it's easier for people to let him pet their animals than their babies though😅. But he knows always to ask first (took a while to get there I tell you). Stand your ground- don't let anyone touch your child in a way you don't feel comfortable with. That's the only explanation you need: I do not feel comfortable with this so no. It's your right as a mother.

This is a really nice response.

Yes it's absolutely ridiculous. Are we to protect people at all costs despite their behaviour so we're not labelled ableist?

Unbelievable really.

And posters saying her baby may be autistic so she should have more understanding. Ridiculous, if her child is autistic that doesn't mean she will just allow unacceptable and yes creepy behaviour.

Totally depends on the individual and circumstances. I know my uncle always had a tied bundle of rags he held constantly. But that was him, and it was a long time ago.

People are getting hung up on your use of the word ‘creepy’.
I think you are having difficulty enunciating exactly how this man’s behaviour makes you feel - and creepy is the best word you’ve got.
It’s describing your gut feeling, that maternal instinct, your brain reading 1001 subtle signs that tells you something is ‘off’.
We are trained from young children to ignore our gut instinct, our spidey senses - yet I believe we should listen to them a lot more.
Yes, he is developmentally disabled. Yes, he’s probably wouldn’t hurt a fly.
But if this was a regular young man with no disabilities would you allow him to behave like this?? No - of course you wouldn’t!
So why is it any different just because he has the mental age of a child much younger? Would you let an 8 year old boy do this to your baby? No, of course not!
So why are people thinking it’s ok for this young man to?

Personally I think advocating for your daughter is far far more important than to worry about upsetting somebody’s feelings .
If your husband won’t say anything then you need to.
We have to teach our children - especially daughters - that they have the right to say NO to anybody touching them in any way if they don’t want it .
You currently have to be your daughter’s voice. I agree with you - better now than later.
Its making you feel uncomfortable for a reason - LISTEN to your maternal instincts and act as you see fit.
Shes not a doll, she’s not his child - she’s yours.

EDIT - people need to stop worrying about being called ‘abelist’. Fuck that. If so so many people were not scared of being called ‘racist’ then maybe Sara Sherif wouldn’t have been tortured for years before being beaten to death with a cricket bat.

Have not read the whole thread, so this has probably been said before.

There are two vulnerable people involved in this situation. At the moment (and for quite some years to come), your daughter's the more vulnerable one due to not being able to speak or remove herself from a situation. I would be mindful of DN's vulnerabilities, capacity and needs too, but they do not trump your daughter's atm. Keep him involved with supervision and teach/hold boundaries. If you are seen to be doing this in a loving and caring way, the family are more likely not to be offended and hopefully will help you reinforce those boundaries when he's around your DD.

Maybe get a little toy that is developmentally suitable for your daughter that he gets to keep in his home to play with her when she visits. Make a fuss of him that he gets to keep this special toy for her (and tell him you will bring new ones once she's ready for them), then each time she's ready for a new toy, be the one that gives it to him for him to play with her during the (supervised) visit. Check with his parents that the toys won't cause any sensory issues for him. By doing this, you can build a bridge rather than a wall between you and DN, his parents, your DH and DD, but you will be able to have more control of the ritual/routine during your visit.

Again, this is all an irrelevance. The baby shouldn't be handled in a way that makes her mother uncomfortable.

I missed this comment. It seems that in light of the fact that "you are not willing to learn more about it", my suggestions above are superfluous.

Be fair to your DH and his family and make this clear to them so that they can decide if they want any further contact with you.

I'm autistic as well and I felt the same. If someone was doing that to DS I'd be feeling creeped out. I don't do that to him, and I don't expect other people to. (Jury's out on whether DS is going to be autistic or not, although it wouldn't surprise me as it runs in my family!)

She is not unreasonable for calling him creepy. As a child, I was on the receiving end of this and was sexually assaulted by someone with a mental disability. It was often pointed out to me he didn’t know what he was doing, but to me it was horrific and something I will never forget.

He may have the mental capacity of a toddler, but he will still have the biology of a grown male, and the hormones that come with that.

I wish someone would’ve pointed out the creepy behaviour in advance.

That's absolutely horrific 💐.
You should not have been subjected to that, and I'm not being "ableist". I hope you've been able to get appropriate help and support.