DP nephew and our new baby

[Girlmummyxox]

Hello

Opinions have been mixed about this so pleade be kind if im being unreasonable. I dont have much experince with autism and its my first baby. So DP nephew is 19 and severely autistic. I say severely as he relies on parents for everything, cannot look after himself and has the mind of a child. I mean no offence by any of this.

He has a bigger brother (not autisitc) and three younger cousins. My little girl is the youngest in the family by quite a bit (dp started family later in life).

Let me say first that nephew is a lovely boy. I genuinely love listening to his movie facts and hearing how passionate he is about games.

Anyway, since our little girl was born (5 months now), he has been.. i cant think of any other word, obsessed with her. Whenever we visit or meet up he has to be the person holding her. When he holds her, he rubs his face all over her and strokes her body. Ive taken her off him before because I find it all a bit creepy. A word me and DP have bickered about. His family encourage him holding her all the time and take lots of pictures of this. DP thinks its because he is unlikely to have a family of his own and they like seeing how happy and gentle he is with a baby. Whenever he gets too close I have started telling him to give her space and sometimes ive taken her back. He has started telling his mum that im giving him into trouble. He sits and just stares at her while being inches from her face. And sometimes kisses her all over, me and dp tell.him to stop. He also always tries taking her from my arms to "show her something" in another room which is usually a laser light or disco ball (she loves colours and movement) but i refuse to let him take her and go with him, while holding her. Why should I? He is a vulnerable adult. As if im letting him take her in another room, alone.
He has now started saying "does she love me??" If we say yes, he gets happy and tries rubbing faces and whispering "i love you too, pretty girl". I dont know, I feel awful as I type all of this but its weird in my opinion.

My issue? Well its crossing boundaries, also I dont want to enable behaviour and id like to set boundaries and expectations now. If my daughter came to me in a few years time telling me another adult was doing this, id be furious. Dp said he understands why I think what I think but his nephew lives in another world and means no harm. He said he doesn't feel the need to speak to his sister as it'll cause offence and what would he even say. Id like him to tell her that she needs to speak to her son about boundaries because it isn't okay.

She has gotten to the age now where she doesn't like being held all the time but this makes him annoyed as she "isn't close to him" he tries to force it until I tell him no. He doesn't like cries and will put his fingers in his ears and shouts "lalalalala" until he is ushered out of the room. They have offered to look after our daughter on so many occasions to let me and my partner go out but its just isnt going to happen.

Partner thinks im unreasonable. Am I?

Thans

In a few years?!?
But the problem is now!

What's stopping you talking to your SIL?
You're not saying your nephew can't spend time with your DD, it's about teaching him what behaviours are allowed and what aren't. And of course it will take time and repetition to help him understand - getting consistent messages from all family members will help with that.

I think you have been far too accommodating.
Your daughter is not a toy.
Stop entertaining this at all.
If it means you no longer meet up, so be it.

I think the boundaries issue is partly you applying a NT view of interactions to a non-NT situation. That's why you find the behaviour creepy. It would absolutely be creepy from a NT nephew; but I don't think it is when you make the mental effort to try to put yourself in the mindset of this young man when he's doing what he's doing. I say this because it seems you trust him fully with her.

I also wouldn't worry about saying something now rather than later: you're probably not best placed to know, and you will have as much right to say something now as later. Personally, I think this behaviour will tail off when the novelty tails off and your baby is less of a baby and more of a young child.

I also think you should knock it off with the "it's not my job" mantra. It's the job of every member of society to accommodate every other member of society. Is it not your job to tell a woman screaming racist bile at a child to stop it?

In your shoes, each and every time I saw behaviour that might be damaging to my baby, I'd gently take her back and say "Jack, that's not an appropriate way to handle a baby. They don't like it when you get right in their faces, and it's also possible to spread harmful germs that way. This is what you do" and demonstrate. Again and again, if necessary. "Jack, can you please keep her here in this room where I can see her? I don't like having her out of my sight when we're not at home". "Jack, it's not polite to grab my baby out of my arms, and it doesn't feel good when you're a baby. Can you please ask if you can have a cuddle? Some moments are better than others and I want you to enjoy her when she's fed and comfortable and happy. Have you seen the electric keyboard there? She loves when you play the low notes fast" etc etc.

Being autistic doesn't stop a man from being a predator. I'm not necessarily saying he is, just that the two do not contradict each other.

Behave exactly as you would with any other adult you feel is being inappropriate with your daughter.

His behaviour isn’t creepy at all.

You only think that because of his biological age but you know that mentally he is much younger.

However, it’s absolutely fine and good to have boundaries for anyone, autistic or not.

If it was a dog, depending on its temperament, you would be ok with him stroking it etc but if he kept on then you would tell him to leave it alone.

I would do the same.
Just because she’s not capable of biting doesn’t mean she should get mauled constantly.

You and DH need to be on the same page though.
There needs to be ground rules that everyone follows all of the time and then flexible rules that are ok unless one of you says that’s enough.

So a ground rule could be that he is not to take her into another room on his own yet. This needs to be clear cut and not budge.

But the kisses and cuddles could be flexible, where they are fine but if your Dd starts getting annoyed then you say that’s enough and he needs to leave her be.

It’s very likely that not only does he obviously love her but also the other family members do and he’s picking up on that but just not understanding the boundaries as much.

Hi OP, I can see why you dont like this. I definitely wouldn't want anyone kissing and cuddling my baby and as your DD gets older it is important that she understands she has a right to her personal space. I agree his parents should be managing the situation but if DH wont talk to his sister then you can just calmly and kindly enforce your daughters boundaries yourself. For example 'Dd dosent like being cuddled anymore. Shall we see if she wants to go in her bouncer and you can show her a toy', or "DD dosent like to be kissed- but she loves it when you talk to her/ do a silly face etc etc.'
I do also think you need to avoid calling DPs nephew creepy. It isn't the same as an NT adult man kissing and cuddling a baby- its more like another child doing it. He clearly loves her and wants to show her affection, he just doesn't understand that he is overstepping. Your tone suggests you think there is something sinister behind it which i think is unfair and is likely to offend your DP and cause him to become defensive of DN.

interesting first post 🤔

Absolutely not and it’s a really good point.

I don’t find his behaviour creepy at all but a large majority of (convicted) peadophiles are ND or mentally younger in age and they pose as much of a threat as any other man.

I would be careful of any man around my child, regardless of ND or not.

He isn't special and I am not rewarding him.

Wow.
That's just charming @Girlmummyxox

I have a 4 month old little girl and there is no way I would allow this. She is experiencing the world as we allow her to at the moment! There is no way I would want her to think this was normal and acceptable behaviour, especially when she is voicing in the only way she can at times that she wants more freedom.
I would do exactly what you are and look after her wellbeing first and foremost.. and definitely wouldn’t allow him to take her into another room unattended, regardless of his mental capacity/ thought processes. If this causes issues with the family, so be it.

This is a very difficult position to be in OP but you are absolutely in charge of this. Under no circumstances should you feel you have to put your DD in a situation you feel (know) is unsafe. Forget all the PC stuff, you know what’s right. Limited supervised contact as would have been the case before we became terrified of upsetting people. Boundaries have to exist for safety reasons.

Basically there’s a risk to both of them as the behaviour isn’t appropriate. Your daughter shouldn’t have it happen to her and the nephew shouldn’t be exhibiting these behaviours as they are inappropriate and could lead to accusations or further worse behaviour at the extreme. Which would negatively affect the nephew, could lead to him no longer being able to live at home with his parents for example.
If it was a slightly older sibling treating the baby like this they would be stopped and told not to. I think those are the two angles I’d take. I also wouldn’t be leaving her there unsupervised but bear in mind your partner might.

I said that because I dont want to buy him gifts. I dont buy the other cousins gifts.

If this is happening with you visiting him in his home, your DH might have to consider more visits without you and the baby because the boy deserves to enjoy and be safe in his home.

Hes not being “creepy”. He’s being tactile because of his sensory needs.
Of course it’s uncomfortable to watch.

As for asking DH to speak to his sister to talk to her son. You’ve said he has a mind of a
baby so what would that achieve? If they’re willing to engage professional help, he might have. a chance.

Both your baby and your DH’s nephew deserve to be protected. It looks like for now, keeping them apart might be the easiest option.

Autism is genetic btw and as your DH’s nephew is so severe you could have a child like him. So it would be good for you to learn more about the condition.

You’ve said he has a mind of a
baby so what would that achieve?

She said child, and that "I genuinely love listening to his movie facts and hearing how passionate he is about games."

So he's perfectly articulate.

I'm actually horrified at people giving more priority to a grown man's feelings than the comfort and potential safety of a tiny vulnerable baby girl.

There could be a whole host of reasons for him behaving the way he does, some of them could be more sinister (autistic people reach sexual maturity just like everyone else, even if they don't understand it), however unlikely that may be I wouldn't be willing to chance it or allow the behaviour to continue because it is a possibility as much as some posters will refuse to admit it.

As others have said I wouldn't use words such as creepy but I'd definitely frame it around you wanting/needing to teach your daughter about her own boundaries and that it isn't fair on her to be manhandled etc.

He does not mean any harm, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be any harm.

A lot of what you’ve described is just not appropriate, and very unfair to your baby.

Your DH needs to speak to his sister asap, and everyone involved needs to be gently telling your DN what is and isn’t appropriate every time.

I wouldn’t let your baby go anywhere in the family without you whilst The other family
members have their heads in the sand and seem to think it’s OK to treat your baby as a doll.

Mixed opinions here.

I have an autistic child ( young adult ) and I teach autistic young adults with quite complex needs - just to show where my opinion / advice comes from.

YANBU to want to set boundaries. She is your child and you absolutely do not have to allow something you do not want just because he’s autistic and it makes him happy, He absolutely needs to have boundaries and for the people around him to support him with that, if he does not understand boundaries he needs someone there to keep reminding him. This is essential for his safety , because if he is never told that he is overstepping he could do this in a public setting and that could be very damaging. Carrying her into another room - again, you are her parent if you feel this is unsafe you have every right to not want this to happen but just make sure this is informed, you have reasons why this feels unsafe and it’s not just because he’s autistic . You can gently explain to him that it’s lovely how much he cares for her and of course she also loves him because she is family and you all do but that we shouldn’t keep kissing her because we have to give people space . I have students who are very touchy feely - a lot of this is sensory seeking behaviour - and I always , consistently, remind them of personal space and consent , that they have to ask and if someone does not want to be hugged , have their hair stroked etc then we absolutely do not do that. The reaction from him to assume he’s done wrong / she doesn’t love him etc is normal - autistic individuals cannot read expressions , moods etc like we can so they can see a simple ‘no’ as a rejection.

It is also important to consider that he does not - most autistic individuals do not - have what we call theory of mind . He cannot imagine how his actions make others feel so he cannot understand that you might be uncomfortable or baby may be … he can’t put himself in someone else’s shoes. The chances are because she is small and cute holding her makes him feel calm and regulated ( he doesn’t have to read her expressions, take in anything verbal from her etc ) it’s about his feelings rather than him thinking she likes the cuddle so he will cuddle her if that makes sense? So when talking about boundaries I would approach this in a way that talks about him or rules - as in it’s the right thing to give space. Maybe a social story , something repetitive - soon it will become the routine that he gives short cuddles or when she is older the cuddles become a high five or something.

How we - YABU to imply this is ‘creepy ‘ . It absolutely is not. This is where damaging stereotypes come from in regard to neurodiversity. I also would not describe him as being child like - he is an adult .
In regard to his hands over his ears etc when she cries - this cannot be about you. If you don’t like it , in the nicest way - tough. This is his response to something that feels overwhelming and uncomfortable for him and this is how he deals with it, it’s harder for him to deal with it than it is for you to see it. He has no control over it

What’s your source for this - what comes under the umbrella of ND in this study?

Autistic people still have sexual feelings, it is ableist to believe otherwise.

A uncle can be creepy/inappropriate. If you are uncomfortable and it isn't behaviour you would tolerate then you should stand your ground.

You are your daughter's protector - I would say the people encouraging this are all failing her.

I know. It's unbelievable. You're not being unreasonable OP. You have to protect your child, that's the priority.

Being articulate has absolutely nothing to do with developmental age.

An autistic individual could recite ever since film title in existence with release date and cast included and still have the developmental age of toddler in other areas .

Minimise contact between DN and your baby. It is not appropriate behaviour regardless of DN's condition. You need to stop it now because if you don't it will be absolutely horrible for your DC - a little girl being slobbered over by an adult man - it doesn't bear thinking about. One 15 minute visit about once a month would be my suggestion.