To have expected her to take the kid out when this happened?

[OneAmusedShark]

Best friend came round for lunch today with her (just) 4 year old who my DD and DS absolutely adore.

She’s not toilet trained (nursery age, not yet at school so not judging).

To cut a long story short, she squatted down and started to take a dump in her nappy in our lounge.

It was obvious what was happening as she stunk the place out, and was grunting,
red in the face etc, and my friend asked her “have you finished” on more than one occasion.

Afterwards, my friend took her out to the bathroom to change her.

I didn’t say anything but surely the polite thing to do would have been to
remove the child as soon as it was obvious what was happening? (or even ask her
to take herself to the bathroom if she knows she’s going to fill her nappy!)

The room still stinks! 🤮

There have always been children with SEN or medical issues (and I’d argue that those needs are far better recognised now than back in the 1970s, which kind of blows your argument out of the water.)

But you’re ignoring the fact that schools report a huge increase among reception children who have no SEN/ medical conditions who just haven’t been toilet trained. They haven’t had their needs met adequately by their parents.

People love to say ‘assuming no SEN’ on these types of posts. You are aware that SEN diagnoses aren’t all done and dusted at the age of 4? This is the sort of behaviour that can help build a picture for an assessment later on in a child where there are no more obvious accompanying learning difficulties, but in the meantime there is often a parent driving themselves to distraction that despite their best efforts, their child is just not getting something that is straightforward for so many others. Not saying that this is what’s going on here but it is a massive oversimplification to just trot this out.

Something similar happened to me but at my house the other week. I had left the potty for my newly potty trained child next to the sofa for easy reach, my child then proceeded to poo in the potty next to my friend. The whole room stunk, I was mortified as I’m sure OPs friend was. The only blessing was it was warmish so I could open the patio doors.

Pretty grim and parent seems clueless.

You must have noticed the child unfastening his clothing before he started shitting. Why didn’t you remove him to the toilet?

If that happened to me I would have left, tbh.

I don't have any experience here, can anyone enlighten me?

Does a child who withholds still know that they have an impending need for a poo? Of course they shouldn't be made to keep it in, but can they be taught to excuse themselves to a more private place than someone's lounge?

@No5ChalksRoad i was in the kitchen making coffee when it happened, friend was with the children in the living room.The potty is tucked away quite discreetly so friend didn’t notice it was the potty before it happened- plus she was busy with our four year olds who were playing with her and the little one was getting on with things himself!

Is have been quite happy with that and probably praised the independent little fellow immensely!

Mixed feelings on this. Both my children toilet trained late (3yo), but I’m pretty sure that I’d have attempted to take the child to the toilet if I could see that they were pooing. For their sake and everyone else’s. To me, now, it seems pretty disgusting to just knowingly leave your 4yo child pooing.

However I don’t know the child’s history so I don’t really like to judge. I also think that, as others have said. Parents of young children become a bit immune to the grossness of it all.

No, I'm saying people are very pleased with themselves that they potty trained at 2, and claiming this mother is lazy when actually 2 is pretty old to be in nappies as well. So you're also also lazy, but feel superior because the lazy western world keeps babies in nappies until 2 years old - it's all down to convenience, nothing more.

Also, shit in the street? You're showing your ignorance. That's appalling.

I had a friend when my eldest was three or four whose toddler soiled his nappy and I recall asking several times if she needed wet wipes but she insisted on washing him in my laundry sink without wiping him first. She came out and said a little chunk of poo fell into the sink so she pushed it down the plug. 🤮 I was gobsmacked. Needless to say I disinfected the entire area as soon as she left. People do weird stuff.

Why does it matter if they're capable of not? They're still shitting in the living room. You're exaggerating the difference between the sizes and smell to suit your narrative - they're both unpleasant so if you tolerate one then you're a hypocrite to the other.

Just because you believe it should have been done earlier doesn't make it so

Shitting in your pants is demeaning for any child. Developmentally, 1 year olds are perfectly capable of being toilet trained but it requires a level of effort that parents are not prepared to put in. And so we encourage them to soil themselves for our convenience - and pride ourselves on doing so.

There isn't much to be smug and superior about.

Yes, absolutely agree, but still teach them to go somewhere private when feel need to go. My youngest didn't potty train for poos until nearly 4, she suffered from terrible constipation and it hurt much more for her to poo in toilet than a nappy as the nappy 'supported' her when she went. But she still took herself to toilet and sat on potty with her nappy on to go. Turned out eventually she had coeliac disease causing the constipation. But we still got her toilet trained in time for school, not doing so was not an option in our heads. We taught her to hold toilet paper under her bottom to mimic effect of nappy in supporting her.

You’re the one mentioning smug and superior - weird. I haven’t used those words at all.

There are massive developmental differences around sense of self between a one year old and a 4 year old. A one year old is not going to feel embarrassed about shitting in a nappy. They also don’t have the expressive language (until they are nearer the age of 2 ) to be able to say that they need a shit.

A NT 4 year old has a far more advanced sense of self, desire for privacy and understanding of their environment.

Astonishing that a few posters don’t seem to understand that - but I guess that explains the increase in school children who aren’t toilet trained if their parents think their 4 year old has no difference in needs to a child two years younger!!

Your tone says it. 'i didn't use those exact words' is pathetic.

There are massive developmental differences around sense of self between a one year old and a 4 year old

So? Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

A one year old is not going to feel embarrassed about shitting in a nappy

So? It doesn't seem like this 4-year-old was either so are you saying that makes it OK? Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

They also don’t have the expressive language (until they are nearer the age of 2 ) to be able to say that they need a shit.

1 year olds absolutely can communicate they need a poo, what a silly thing to say, and proves my point -it comes down to effort on the parents' side. Doesn't change the fact that 1 year olds soiling themselves is down to parental convenience, nothing more.

A NT 4 year old has a far more advanced sense of self, desire for privacy and understanding of their environment

All of them? Have you met them all? Or are you just generally sweeping that statement in to educate people on what you think is a good thing to say?

All of what you've said just backs up what I've said. We justify keeping kids in nappies until a convenient age through laziness - then look down on others after we find it easier to train them.

Mine are 2 years apart and I did have to be quite firm with my older one when potty training the younger one. I think some kids get the sense of inhibition more naturally and others do need it to be encouraged and reinforced by responsible adults.

Calm down love

You said that you've never had a conversation about the childs bowels so it's perfectly possible that something medical is going on which you don't know about.

It doesn't always have to be related to autism etc either.

I wouldn't judge without knowing the full situation.

Why isn’t she toilet trained?
she clearly knows she’s going to the toilet.

Very poor parenting, you may be in for a rough ride with this friend. The lack of parenting isn’t as obvious with babies, but once they hit school it becomes obvious and the kids become difficult to be around.

I wouldn’t really care what the full situation is. If the child can’t be either relied upon to not shit in the living room OR immediately be taken out of the living room if she starts shitting, her parents need to confine their activities to places where people won’t be forced to see, hear and smell the defecation.

And I would hope that includes restaurants, cinemas, etc as well as private homes.

There's dispute around those figures because children were in SEN provision, or if 'young for their age' didn't start school at 5. My GC MPA wasn't diagnosed until around 6 and her medical issues addressed/recognised until that age. So she would have been included in the 'bad parenting' figures. Then there's the increasing numbers of children who have other issues because of migration/asylum seeking etc. We used to have to carry my GC around and put shopping in her pram. Now we know the screaming was because of bowel pain, but no doubt we were judged.

So trapped at home 24/7 even if it may be a medical reason?

My son is bowel incontinent due to medical reasons. Should we never leave the house either? It really isn't always as simple as taking them out right away for several reasons.

Nothing more to say? Classic.

Oh come on now Op, this thread was designed to start a late toilet training bashing wasn’t it…and we do so love one of those on Mumsnet!!!