Politics aside, is private school usually a better experience of education for kids compared with state?

[Isitbetterb]

Just that really. We have no political views on private v state and whilst we can afford private, neither of us have ever been to one nor have family who have.

Not really bothered about grades but more the environment. Is it really better than state? And if so in what way?

We have one child in state secondary and we put our autistic, geeky son in mainstream private. He wasn’t coping with the hullabaloo of the local (supposedly outstanding) state secondary. The classroom disruption and raucousness was stressing him out and he was regularly beaten up for no reason with no real consequences given to the bullies.

The private school kids are just much kinder people. Less swearing, shouting, punching. Just more respectful to their fellow classmates and teachers. In terms of teaching the teaching itself is no different - we had no issues with the teachers at the state school - but the teachers get a chance to teach. About 25% of every lesson in the state school was crown control. There is none of that in private. The range of clubs and music opportunities is much wider. My shy child has been encouraged into the drama production and is really blossoming. The private school seems to help the students with uni applications much more too. Lots of open days and advice, whereas my state school child was very much left to it.

I really wish I could have afforded to send my state school child private too but we’re not big earners and scraped everything together to send one child private too- and it has changed his life.

Often times for a lot of children who don’t get on in state school due to ND needs, social issues or MH issues etc.

It depends what you define as better.

Private school Advantages:
no behaviour issues (so lessons not disrupted),
small classes (so lots of 1-to-1 time and lots of feedback)
a huge variety of activities on offer (you pay for them but at least they are on offer).

But... one MASSIVE disadvantage of a private school is the lack of academic resilience in pupils.

In a state school, classes are up to 32 pupils, so to succeed you need to be independent, study, and figure things out for yourself - the resilience of learning from your mistakes/failures. In a private school, there is SO much spoon feeding done (small classes!) which is what gets the higher results. That then means that pupils have missed out on the skill of resilience as they've had a lot of hand holding, so this can mean A Levels are more of a challenge, and in particular University can be a struggle as they lack the skills to be self sufficient.

I teach in a state school but lots of the A Level pupils come in from private schools, and although they got grades 7/8/9, their A Level learning skills are massively lacking compared to those who have been in a state school.

Like others have said i guess it depends very much on the school. I've got one in private (which started in state) and one in state and for our particular private and state schools the advantages of private are as follows:

1. Smaller vlass size (allows for more teacher contact time and better teacher supervision, easier to speak up, quieter environment, more facilties for each child)
2. Extremely fast response time to any query: thr admin is worth 90% of the school fees. She usually replies to emails within an hour and always gives accurate information. Teachers also reply to queries within one or at the most 2 days and usually really try to find a solution if there is an issue.
3. Lots of opportunities for public speaking sjd performances. They do group and individual performances probably once or twice a term and every child gets an opportunity to perform or have a speaking role.
4. Lots of clubs and opportunities to sing in choir, play in orchestra and try all kinds of stuff. We save some money by sending dc to the free after school clubs rather than wrap around care.
5. Quite relaxed about being late (which is a godsend in our case but more organised qnd competent families wouldn't need it) and absences.
6. Quite diverse and multicultural.
7. Lots and lots and lots of topic and general knowledge kind of work

Things I dont like:

1. The school encourage competition which i dont like. I thought the kids and parents were too.competitive but since dc has joined state school I have realised that most kids are super competitive. The parents at the private school though seem more competitive than the state one, which can be annoying but in our case they are also a helpful and friendly bunch so I don't really mind.
2. Very pushy: they demand a lot from the children and push them to always do more. I worry about the amount of homework and self study thst is expected but I know that some parents think that is a positive and want more of that.

Rubbish.

• small classes - hugely advantageous
• zero tolerance of disruption, even low-level
• relaxed and enthusiastic teachers not weighed down by govt bureaucracy or stress from riot- control
• excellent music and drama and sport provision
• often early and late clubs and really good clubs
• high expectations and students given a lot of responsibility

I’m a parent whose children went to state schools but I’ve taught in a public school.

Having been to both public and private, yes, there is a big difference most of the time.

manly because if some children are too disruptive, they’re asked to leave the school. This means that teachers can actually teach. They’re not caught up in having to repeatedly stop teaching to address unruly behaviour.

secondly, many of my friends (and myself) in private school would attend revisions courses during school breaks. Not so my friends in public sector.

Knowing how to structure your course notes while in class for future revision, how to revise as well as creating a revision time table for yourself and how to interpret exam questions were part of our courses. My friends in state sector hadn’t really thought about this so already were at disadvantage when it was time to revise for exams.

emphasis in private, in my own experience, was to try to get high exam scores in order to get into good universities. My public school friends, on the most part (but not all), were just trying to get through them. Not a lot of thought had been given when Choosing gcse subjects to understand how that fed into A levels the uni courses were requiring for the subjects they wanted to read at uni and did t understand how it worked back to gcse choices and grades.

For us the main goal is our child’s happiness and an enjoyable school experience. We have looked at a lot of prep schools and found many to be either extremely academically competitive or a bit fur coat no knickers where it seems the facilities are the main draw and the teaching is mediocre. We have finally found a school which is small, has excellent teachers, a rigorous curriculum and great pastoral support. What really sealed it though was how happy the children were, how much time was spent in sports and nature and the variety of subjects on offer. I’d suggest looking at a wide range of schools both state and private and finding the right fit for your child

Paedophilia in private schools would be a big concern for me. There's two supposedly very prestigious within North Yorkshire alone where it's been rife for years and very organised. Obviously that's just the ones who got caught. Kind of makes you wonder who's overseeing all that lot.

DD1 went from private to state to private. Whether it's better in private depends on the local offering you have available. Some privates are good academically but poor socially. Others have all the bells and whistles, but are academically unambitious. You have to match the school to the child (and that goes for state too). DD1 could have gone to state secondary, but we didn't get any of our school choices and I can say that the private school has provided more academic opportunity for her and much wider and better extra curriculars.

DD2 has only been in state, and will likely stay there unless she's sent to a SEN independent by the council. Her state primary has been far better on the SEN front than I saw happening at DD1s private primary, but the academic progress/attainment is lower (though on the SAT results is apparently what the state expects/is happy with).

The first 10k of any fees will just replicate state provision - thats how much it would cost a private school on average to replicate state level provision.

Money on top of that will go to creating smaller classes, possibly better facilities, more specialist teachers etc.

It’s impossible to generalise.

My friend’s daughters went to a girls’ grammar school. I suspect their experience was closer to the experience mine had at a selective girls’ independent than it would have been to the experience of someone at an underperforming secondary modern school.

I suspect that the experience mine had was more similar to that of my friend’s children than it would have been to the experience of children in a boarding school like Marlborough.

There are also comprehensives and comprehensives. One of my sisters teaches in a comprehensive. So does one of my daughters. From what I hear, they are a million miles apart in terms of pupil achievement, behaviour, parental engagement, effective leadership/management and staff turnover. I imagine children in the two schools have very different experiences

I find the ‘private school kids are spoonfed’ criticism to be an odd one, as if a children being supported to reach their full potential is somehow a bad thing.
It’s especially odd when another argument against private schools is that it’s unfair for certain children to get a quality of education that all children should be receiving. So ‘spoonfeeding’ is simultaneously aspirational and something to be denigrated.

The idea that success in life isn’t valid unless you’ve made it against the odds is a noxious one, frankly. Education isn’t supposed to be the hunger games.

In my experience, in many (but certainly not all) cases, it’s like comparing Butlins in the UK with a luxury resort in Greece.

Both provide the basics, but one is a bit, better.

To do this you need to look at the actual schools you would send your child to and see whether you think the state or private schools would give your child a better educational experience.

@RhaenysRocks

I can see your point about the cost effectiveness from the POV of the LA of sending some kids with SEN to a private school. I don’t think that’s the norm though because kids who have general learning difficulties struggle to get much funding, so they wouldn’t be able to justify paying say £20k for one child with severe dyslexia, when that money could help several children. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, however in the LA where I live they would be placed in mainstream with some funded hours at the most. There is one special school but that’s only for those children with profound and multiple learning disabilities. The rest are sent to mainstream with varying degrees of funding.

I do agree that private schools can be good for some pupils for various reasons
and especially those with SEN. If the parents can afford to pay then I don’t blame them, however most people can’t afford to send their children to private school and that’s the crux of it. That’s what I mean when I say they aren’t socially diverse, though I accept some will be more than others.

It’s not about it being the hunger games, it’s about acknowledging that that those who attend private school have a privilege that 90% of the population don’t. They’ve had an easier environment for them to achieve their best, both at school and at home.

If you had a child from a private school with wealthy and supportive parents gain 9 A grade GCSE, then you have a a child from a poorly performing, deprived area comp, gain the same grades, it’s the resilience and against the odds that’s impressive in the latter example. Would the first chid have achieved the same grades had they been in the same situation as the second?

Thankfully universities use the same approach and offer contextual offers for students from deprived backgrounds, which acknowledging the privilege of private education. Social mobility is getting worse so I see this as a great way to try to help those from less affluent backgrounds

It really depends on the child and the school. DS was very bright but also very sporty so we chose an academically selective private/independent day school with a strong sporting tradition. It was full of children from similar backgrounds ( professional rather than obscenely wealthy parents) so it was a very good fit for DS. He had the option of our local, very good, state school at senior level, but he was happy with his friendship group and also breezed through the entrance exams with no tuition.
He was an academic all rounder so never struggled with the homework demands or the accelerated learning pace. Inevitably Covid had an affect but he went on to uni without any problems. He is, however struggling with depression at the moment but this has nothing to do with his school experience, and if it wasn’t for the support of his strong friendships from school he would be coping much l as well.
He had a friend who was profoundly dyslexic who didn’t join them at senior level. He attended a local independent school specialising in SEN. He too has achieved his potential.
I think you have to visit the schools on open days. Then go back for private visits to get a feel for everyday life. Also talk to parents who have children in the system.
We were recommended DS’s school by his nursery teacher. She suggested an academically selective school.

Me and my husband are similar academically but he is cleverer, he went to a well known boarding school, I went to three state secondary schools and a post 16 college. It’s quite clear that both academics and behaviour were better at all of my schools. I was taught as in teachers made sure we understood concepts and could apply them, my husbands education was largely memorising, in year eleven every lesson was a mock paper from December onwards, if they weren’t performing well by February they wouldn’t be entered for the exam to avoid damage to the schools reputation.

On top of that physical violence, sexism, racism, homophobia and sexual abuse were a problem at his school. If a boy was awful it was ignored if their parents made regular ‘donations’ to the school.

I was part of the hunger games growing up 😂. I did well got out. Didn’t need a massaged offer to university. I had the grades without, despite the school. I knew if I could ever afford it, my kids wouldn’t have to go to a shit school (not a reflection on the teachers, it’s def the school, the gvt and shit parenting - in some cases ). And they don’t.

I've only personally experienced state schools.
But listening to friends who sent their kids to private schools and seeing how the kids turned out then yes I think private is better.
Smaller class sizes-less than half the size of state school classes.
More opportunities, extra circular activities and trips.
Somehow private schools seem to instill confidence and self esteem-no idea how!
Better environment - I actually think green space and beautiful grounds and buildings, spacious classrooms do make a difference to how you feel. (well it does for me anyway!)
Less likely to have disruptuve pupils in the class.

I think LA funded placements at private schools for SEND/ALN pupils varies massively in different parts of the UK. England and Wales have two completely different approaches to this.

Whereas it seems to me that English LAs will very often fund (or be forced to by Tribunal) these private placements, it is vanishingly rare in Wales. This is impacted by many factors, but I think one of the main ones is that state schools in Wales are LA maintained (even the Voluntary Schools e.g Church in Wales, are LA funded). There is a very strong political preference in Wales for community comprehensive schools, many of which have attached 'Units' for more severely disabled children who cannot attend mainstream. Kids with less profound ALN/SEND are expected to attend mainstream with varying levels of support. This is obviously different from school to school and county to county, and is very hit and miss, however the presumption is that children will attend LA maintained schools (including Specialist ALN schools, but there are too few of these to meet need), rather than fund private provision. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but these are very rare. Wales also has relatively few private schools, particularily outside urban areas, and no Welsh medium private schools. Only 2%ish of children in Wales attend private schools (the rate being much higher the closer you get to England e.g. Monmouthshire with 12%) compared to 6-7% of English pupils. I think that the Scottish rate is around 4%ish with N.I. less than 1%. Interestingly, N.I. pupils have the best academic performance of the four home nations (https://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/news/new-study-compares-pupil-performance-across-uk-nations ).

This summary from a NASUWT report earlier this year shows where some of the challenges are in the English state system:

"Key Findings: Where Is the Money Going?

Academy Trust CEO salaries are soaring – Some chief executives are earning over £500,000, far exceeding the Prime Minister’s salary.

Consultancy spending is skyrocketing – Academy Trusts spent £412 million on consultants in 2022-23, nearly double the amount five years ago.

Profiteering in SEND provision – Private SEND schools are charging up to £61,500 per pupil, compared to £23,900 in state-funded schools, with some companies making tens of millions in profit.

Supply teacher agencies cashing in – Schools spent £1.2 billion on supply teachers in 2022-23, with agencies pocketing £300 million in fees.

Councils crippled by SEND bill – As councils struggle to provide provision they are increasingly forced to turn to the private sector. Calderdale Council saw spending rise a 477% in four years, from £699,409 in 2020-21 to £4,035,607 in 2023-24."

So @Isitbetterb, what I think you also need to take into consideration is the provision of the home nation you reside in. We realised that moving between them was not such an easy proposition when considering language, culture and political aspects of education in the various nations.

In reality, the question is much broader than simply state or private.

For some it seems very much to be about the Hunger Games, as if achievement is required to be paid for by suffering.

Achieving against the odds may be admirable, but that doesn’t make having to face the odds desirable or ‘better’. It doesn’t make someone that’s achieved in the face of no odds somehow morally inferior. It’s perfectly possible to applaud one without tearing down the other.

Agree and I don't think spoon feeding is the right term. In my experience it is usually about stretching students as far as possible. For example my A level French teacher who had taught at universities told as at the beginning of the course that she'd just be teaching us as though we were university students and she'd expect we'd be able to cope with it but she'd support us if not. We were extremely well prepared for A level and for university as a result, but were absolutely expected to put the work in.
I do appreciate A levels are different to earlier secondary and that the above experience could equally be provided by any decent teacher private or state.

@Isitbetterb people on here speak of their own experiences from back when they were at school.
Things have changed MASSIVELY since then.
If you want a real picture of state versus private, I’d suggest you ask teachers who work in these two different sectors to honestly give their opinion as it’s based on recent experience.

My kids went to both, albeit only for a few years in state. Their primary state school was rated outstanding and really, it was fine, nothing much to complain about.

But the private school has great facilities (swimming pool, gym, several sports fields), great extracurriculars (DD has learnt 3 instruments), many lunchtime and after school clubs, good art, music and drama departments, a wide range of subjects. Teaching is great in some subjects and less so in others, probably comparable to state, but the teacher engagement is fantastic, we are kept up to date with any problems so there's no surprises at parents evening, there are lunchtime drop in sessions for additional support for most subjects, good pastoral care - basically a lot of effort goes into pushing the children to do their best.

Academically, my kids would have probably achieved similar results in state, but they wouldn't have been exposed to half as many enrichment activities if they didn't go to private school, no matter how much effort we put in.