Anyone like to reconsider what they posted about the train attack on Saturday night?

[margegunderson]

There were (to my mind) some horrific posts claiming that it MUST be a terrorist attack, demanding information on the attacker’s race and motivations NOW, shouting about Starmer censorship and picking fights with anyone suggesting it might not be cut and dried and to wait for more information. Hideously racist as well.
If that was you - any reflections today? What will you do if there’s a next time?

I didn’t see the threads but I can imagine.

I think unfortunately because the attacker was not white it will still feed right-wing narratives. Less than if he’d been an asylum seeker and/or a Muslim, but still.

The whole thing is unimaginably awful, including the hideous public response. Just saw one of the survivors saying she doubts she will ever be able to get on a train again. No-one has died (so far) but lives have been destroyed for sure.

Those threads were absolutely horrific.

I didn't see the threads and I didn't partake in guessing anything about he attackers. Like the poster above, I can imagine what was said so there's no point finding the threads just to be offended.

I don't understand why this isn't an act of terror though. Why do the people have to be from a different place / certain religion for it to be terrorism. In my opinion an act of terror should something which makes people scared to live their normal lives. Getting on a train is as normal as it gets really and now people have to worry about mass stabbings. No idea what the answer is but I can almost guarantee, somewhere down the line, the internet is to blame.

It has been so depressing reading the vitriol on previous MN threads on the attack. As an ethnic minority, it really concerned me just how many people wanted this to be "boat people" and "Muslim fanatics" and, after the police described the suspect as a "black British national" how quickly it changed to "so when did his family move to Britain" and "if a dog was born in a stable it doesn't make it a horse" type comments.

I grew up here, I am a British citizen and have always felt like Britain is home. But the level of hostility these days is, for the first time in my life, making me wonder which of my local community (or maybe all of them?) think I don't belong here.

I don't think anyone who was so keen to jump to conclusions on MN will be retrospective and change their minds. I think they will find another way for the suspect's background to fit their narrative. Simply the fact that Anthony Williams is black will be enough.

Yes I was wrong I jumped to the conclusion that it was a terrorist attack when it was reported that two men randomly attacked people in a train

We are at risk from terrorist attacks such as these and the concern is very real. While I hold up my hands to say I was wrong, for myself it is not a right wing agenda that I am trying to push though I am sure some on here would like to accuse me of this

Fear causes bigotry and scolding people will not help. We need a calm conversation about race, religion and immigration. The current toxicity of the debate is causing bigotry on all sides imo and I am genuinely worried about a reform government getting in or race riots. We need to work to help communities foster relationships based on trust and shared goals. Bollocking people will not change their behaviour, looking down on them only makes you feel better, it changes nothing. Please can everyone calm down and speak civilly to each other? Some of us live in areas where we are genuinely terrified of the current tensions spilling into mass violence.

I actually think MNHQ really needs to get a handle on this and make sure their talk guidelines against misinformation, racism / general hate speech and enforced. Additionally the police asked for people not to speculate and yet MNHQ let multiple threads of speculation and the aforementioned misinformation etc stand.

I really don't know why this isn't being addressed. Was it because it's a weekend and it happened late at night, meaning less moderation? With a site as big as MN, it's really not acceptable to have such light-touch moderation and to rely solely on user reports.

There are still, today, a few posters going on about Islamic takeovers and power plots to get into govt and frankly it's disgraceful that MN haven't got hold of this.

A "calm conversation about race" doesn't involve:

• conspiracy theories about the govt and police suppressing information
• conspiracy theories about Muslims plotting to take over the govt
• saying "it's just part of their culture, black men smoke weed and they get paranoid"
• talking about deporting "the usual third world suspects"

If you want to have a calm, civil conversation about race, be my guest. I won't argue against it. But don't try to pretend that was what was happening this weekend.

I am sure it was Terrifying but there is an actual definition of a Terror attack - it is designed to instill terror and this was just one very unwell individual suffering from delusions.
My sympathy is 100% with the victims of course and the perpetrator needs to be punished and kept somewhere he can't hurt anyone else (and treated appropriately) but it wasn't Terrorism

I left the thread.

I am very concerned about all forms of extremism and we need to keep much better tabs on who is entering the country and potential terrorists BUT I hate the fact that every time something happens people make assumptions based on race or religion or both.

All the misinformation spreading & whipping up a frenzy helps no-one.

I'm so sorry about these disgusting comments. I find it so appalling. My DH and family are west African and my son is mixed heritage and it makes me scared for both of them and our family members. Even the fact another black man was arrested along with the attacker and now released without charge. It's scary how comfortable people are expressing openly racist views.

Terror has a very strict definition linked to political motivations. If you remove that, then virtually any violent act, any murder, becomes terrorism and it loses all meaning. The Dunblane shootings for example - I don’t think anyone considers them a terrorist act? Or serial killers. They also impact people’s confidence to go about their daily lives.

Absolutely disgusting comments, I'm sickened

I don't understand why this isn't an act of terror though. Why do the people have to be from a different place / certain religion for it to be terrorism.

For it to legally be terrorism the act has to have been carried out with the aim of influencing the government, or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public. The use or threat must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.

Tasered for being black is a new low. We are also a mixed family and I fear for sons/grandsons.

I didnt see the threads tbh but I can still judge anyone that was being racist

Also judge participants of that long running anti labour thread that started super soon after labour got into power

Because there is a legal definition of terrorism in the Terrorism Act 2000: "the use or threat of violence, designed to influence the government, or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public. The use or threat must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.

The key word here is "purpose". The violent act must be for advancing an agenda or cause. If this test is not met, then it is not terrorism. This implies that the act must be planned. A random act of violence carried out by a schizophrenic does not meet this test.

@Bagsintheboot where have I suggested that? Why the argumentative condescending tone. I have not made any comment on any thread about this, except the one above.
Scolding middle class voices are not helping ethnic minorities at all, they are deepening the divide and creating hatred, exactly like the racists do.

YANBU, OP - those threads were absolutely grim and among the worst I’ve seen on MN. I absolutely believe that there are bad actors on here and other social media sites who are deliberately trying to fan the flames of ethnic/religious tension, and we mustn’t let them succeed.

Perhaps the most urgent question to arise from this appalling event is why so many people, and it seems particularly men from black and other ethnic minority backgrounds, are not receiving the help/treatment they need from mental health services.

I'm only "scolding" the racist, prejudiced voices who jump to false conclusions with no basis and who whip up hatred and division.

If you really think posting in the vein of the examples I gave is a constructive, helpful way to address highly complex social issues then I don't know what more I can say.

I didn’t post but yes I also made an assumption of a terrorist attack on the basis of the info at that time that TWO people had been arrested.

I commented on one poster on that thread who has been on a number of threads posting bizarre 'left wing' positions (Lets hope it turns out to be a white man and the government should suppress information to protect certain communities) I am not a conspiracy theorist but I definitely felt there were bad actors trying to whip up division on that thread.

It's depressing the way the Right Wing has captured the national narrative to the extent that the first thing to happen after any awful incident is a bunfight over WAS IT AN IMMIGRANT?!

The threads were awful. I posted that just because two people were arrested, it didn’t mean two had committed the crime and was totally ignored. Didn’t fit the narrative.