To be hurt and angry that DD told her prof her mum is a TERF and he sympathised

[Dahliadaily]

My DD is at a Russell group uni studying a masters following a 1st in humanities. I’m really proud of her obviously.
We were always really close. She cried for me throughout freshers’ week, relied on my tough love.

We differ respectfully on the trans issue. I am a feminist and a biology grad and believe in the reality of sex and the importance of single sex spaces, the rule of law.

We negotiate this ok and do keep talking. I’m sure that more unites us than separates us. We agree on prostitution for example. But not on the medicalisation of gender.

She is a lesbian. Has lots of gay non binary and trans friends. Her flatmate is a trans man. I’d never make a personal remark about any of them.

My other DD told me that uni DD has got close to a prof (male and gay - nothing sleazy) and told him I was a TERF. He responded “that must be really difficult for you”.

She’s an intelligent young woman, capable of forming her own views. But I can’t help being hurt by her comment and angry with the prof for siding with this idea that I’m difficult or even evil / unkind. It feels a bit like grooming.

Other women do.
And you have no permission to give their rights away.

Religious women
Elderly women
Survivors of male violence and abuse
Young women

They have a legal and moral right to single sex spaces
and hospital wards
and sport
and changing rooms (see Darlington and Fife)

Males can use the male spaces or a separate mixed space

And let me add - even if it's difficult now, it might not be forever. My mum was the terfiest TERF I'd ever met and profoundly influenced my views when I was growing up, but university opened my eyes, I did a 180 turn on the issue and am now pro trans rights, and after a lot of tearful conversations and soul searching my mum is too! So one way or another you might reconcile on the issue one day 😉

Not sure what could be done or said here. Your daughter has the opposite views to you and actively lives them out.

If it was me, I would honestly shut up and give her some money, trying to make sure her sexual health is ok and cruise along. Of course I would be bitter, sad and all that, that it is me. But I won't be stirring anything. She chose her lifestyle, she will bear the way life pans out

@tragichero

(as a committed feminist, just like me, she doesn't actually think TWAW, nor does she want dick-slinging twats calling themselves Kylie Big-Tits predating on vulnerable women in prisons, OF COURSE she doesn't. I strongly doubt your daughter does either, OP.

But you can't write policies for prisons, toilets, sports or changing rooms based on someone's name, or their perceived level of dick-swinging-ness.
If you say that some males are allowed in women's spaces and sports, then you say that all are - including Kylie Big Tits.

You do understand that you would be classed as a “terf”? But defo do it to Julia.

Unfortunately this is not the end of a story like this. There is more to life than just crying and agreeing on certain things

What convinced you? Genuinely interested.

@PigletIsWorried because what you’re basically saying is that you believed being female was important up to a point and now you don’t, and you persuaded your mum that she should think biological sex isn’t important too. Lets unpack that.

For the lurkers, obvs.

That’s not what your OP said. Your OP said that your daughter used the term TERF and he responded.

Try not to drip feed in an internally inconsistent fashion with your OP.

Which part did you struggle with? There wasnt a single thing i didnt understand so im just curious

Also, no one cared about this shite until a decade ago at the absolute most, so that seems an interesting tale about your childhood @PigletIsWorried

I used to think as you do, until a notorious case in my area where the perpetrator used access to women's spaces in order to prey on his victims.

I know more of the perpetrator than most people do. He was aggressive towards women and girls before he committed the crimes for which he was arrested. I suppose it's possible that his aggression was because he felt aggrieved that others had what he did not - a female body. That's immaterial. He should never have been allowed to access female spaces.

The issue is you only have a quarter of the story.

You don’t know what was said before and what the proff sympathised with. You don’t know what uni DD said after or what context the while conversation was in.

Imagine she asked for support because her flat mate is struggling with x,y,x and it’s affecting her, so he asked her if she has anyone to talk to , what about her mum? And she replied with “well… she’s a TERF, she doesn’t get it.” Followed by “that must be hard for you”. And it would be hard for her if she’s struggling with something and she feels she can’t come to you because you won’t understand. Even if it’s not true and you’re there to listen and support.

That’s just one example where such an exchange isn’t actually an agenda or grooming or ganging up on you or dissing you.

I do have to wonder though, what did the other DD have to gain from sharing this information?

That's what I thought. 😅

And I'm GC.

Learning about the issue from multiple sources, not just from her, researching things for myself, learning how to think critically and examine the arguments of others, meeting trans people, discovering that I'm bisexual and having my eyes opened to the LGBT+ world and the intersectionality of our struggles.

My views on a lot of subjects changed when I wasn't under my mother's thumb any longer, but I'm hugely proud of how much she's changed too. She was an oppressive, overbearing figure in my childhood and if you had told me at fifteen that she would one day change her views based on things I discussed with her I truly could not have believed it.

Our relationship is difficult in other ways because she was very emotionally abusive to me when I was under her roof but I'm glad for the areas where there has been progress.

I can see you're seeking to define my position for me and I don't really engage with that kind of bad-faith behaviour. Needless to say I do believe being female is important, and I don't find that inconsistent with supporting trans rights.

okay. So what is wrong with what the professor said? You agree “it must be difficult” was a fair statement. From your OP the professor did not add any “and your mother is evil” type statements. Sounds like you’re trying to make yourself a victim here in a situation where your daughter had a perfectly reasonable conversation without any inflammatory statements.

Gosh that's naive - believe me, TERFs have been around since the 70s! I was a child of the 90s and it really was nothing new at that time.

By woke, I assume you mean educated and empathetic.

But you are a Terf? By your own omission on this thread? So why is that term hurtful to you? I also don’t think the professor said anything offensive - he didn’t even really comment at all. He said “that must be really difficult for you” presumably because he knows that you & your daughter have differing views & that it must put strain on the relationship - which again, you pretty much already said yourself?

The problem with this is that it affects anyone at their most vulnerable because toilet design changes.

Single sex toilets with a single sex area outside the cubicles, are the ones that we are traditionally used to. Now lots of venues, including universities, have created what is often described as ‘inclusive’ toilets, without thinking of the consequences.

Single sex toilets can have door gaps for health and safety.
Mixed sexed toilets are private.
We are losing the health and safety aspects that door gaps bring.

When people feel ill, they go to the toilet. Whilst I was at university, in a nightclub ‘ladies’, we saved a young women’s life (she had vomited and had turned blue). We dragged her out the toilet (by going over the top of the door as her body was in the way of the door), and got the vomit out of her mouth and on her side, whacking her on the back til she was breathing and turned pink again.

That woman was unlikely to have survived being in an ‘inclusive’ toilet.

Single sex toilet designs with door gaps are more inclusive of anyone who is medically vulnerable and those who have medical conditions such as the millions with heart conditions, diabetes, epilepsy etc.
Especially important at that vulnerable stage at university when young adults maybe compromised by the effects of alcohol, drugs, spikings (or not taking their medication) and not having a support system. 11% of all cardiac arrests happen on the loo.

I have looked at toilet design for the last few years and have looked at assaults. It is unsurprising that women, and children in particular, are assaulted by men in private, more sound resistant spaces. Perpetrators don’t like witnesses and most other people would try and make it stop or raise the alarm if they realised what was going on.

If there’s any ambiguity as to whether a toilet is single sex, the design becomes private. For toilets to all go mixed sex we will have more deaths and assaults because the design will be completely private and sound resistant. This design has also been shown to have problems with ventilation and scientifically proven to hold more pathogens and it is less easily cleanable.

‘Inclusive’ public toilets aren’t as safe for anyone by their design but they are least worst for healthy men.

The statement “that must be difficult for you” is the kind of non commital support that a therapist would offer. It doesn’t actually offer any judgement. It’s pretty much the perfect response.

Does she have additional needs or any reason that as a post graduate woman she is vulnerable or susceptible and needs to be protected from influences? Presumably on her 20s and in her 5 year of higher education? I'd have thought she'd have some autonomy and skills by now and be able to discern her own views so wondering if there's a reason your worried about people influencing her? Do you worry your views which are against her beliefs influence her?

I read it as a totally non-commital, arse-firmly-planted-on-the-fence rejoinder from someone who doesn't want to get embroiled in the 10th circle of hell that is the Trans versus GC debate.

Hell, I'D probably say something similar in the circumstances and I am GC.

Well no there’s already the assumption that it would be difficult.

The neutral answer would be - “how do you feel about that?”.