To be hurt and angry that DD told her prof her mum is a TERF and he sympathised

[Dahliadaily]

My DD is at a Russell group uni studying a masters following a 1st in humanities. I’m really proud of her obviously.
We were always really close. She cried for me throughout freshers’ week, relied on my tough love.

We differ respectfully on the trans issue. I am a feminist and a biology grad and believe in the reality of sex and the importance of single sex spaces, the rule of law.

We negotiate this ok and do keep talking. I’m sure that more unites us than separates us. We agree on prostitution for example. But not on the medicalisation of gender.

She is a lesbian. Has lots of gay non binary and trans friends. Her flatmate is a trans man. I’d never make a personal remark about any of them.

My other DD told me that uni DD has got close to a prof (male and gay - nothing sleazy) and told him I was a TERF. He responded “that must be really difficult for you”.

She’s an intelligent young woman, capable of forming her own views. But I can’t help being hurt by her comment and angry with the prof for siding with this idea that I’m difficult or even evil / unkind. It feels a bit like grooming.

Sex matters in toilets where women are partially undressed and vulnerable and dealing with menstruation etc. which they will want privacy for. And just because you don't care which toilets trans people go into doesn't mean other women don't care. You cannot make such a fundamental decision for other women and therefore you should see clearly that sex segregated loos (and changing rooms) are vital for women to participate in public life and thus might like to think about supporting them.
Any man in an enclosed space where women are undressing is perceived as a threat. He should not be there. It matters not at all that he is wearing a frock.

I agree that he quite likely meant it in this way. As a teacher, I often have to come up with neutral responses to students’ various comments and this one sounds like an attempt to sympathise with the general difficulty without saying anything too committing politically. Perhaps, ideally, he might have said ‘that must be difficult for you both’ but he quite possibly meant ‘that must be difficult for you (to hold such a different opinion from someone you’re so close to)’ rather than ‘that must be difficult for you (to have such an awful mother)’.

I'm not in a bubble. My daughter and her BF (both straight and cis-gender) have plenty of trans / non-binary friends - but I hadn't come across it either.

I'm inclined to suggest that it is YOU who is in the bubble - a TERF speaking bubble 😁

I go inside a cubicle, I’ve no idea what you’re up to, but I’d be equally uncomfortable seeing you in a state of undress dealing with your periods. I’m aware I don’t talk for all women, in the same way that you don’t either.

Well you are excluding them from the sex class of women, aren’t you? In your head you have already acknowledged that TW are men.That’s what bigoted dinosaur TERF’s (people like you) do.

You are still in a place where you think that allowing TW into women’s spaces, sports and prisons can somehow be ‘managed’. You haven’t realised that total capitulation to the ideology is what is required.

Rejecting TWAW in your head, is the first step to Peak Trans. It starts with thinking those thought crimes. (Welcome to the club!)

This

It is English. Russell group - group of universities that include Oxbridge (but it's not them, OP would likely have said), Durham, some of the University of London etc. It's a self-selected group btw. 1st - first class division of a Bachelor of Arts degree (about half of students get these now - and 2.2s, for example, hardly feature any more). 'masters' a higher degree, usually Master of Arts (MA) but also Master of Philosophy (slightly higher up the tree than an MA) etc. Next level is a PhD or D.Phil which stands for doctor of philosophy - and covers any subject (philosophy meaning an area of study - arts degrees tend to be called D. Phil and science ones PhD, I think). PhDs are always done by research, a masters can be taught (takes at least a year) or by research (how long is a piece of string or 'how much funding do you have?' determines length) - the latter requiring a dissertation like a Ph.D.

Children in the UK are not being offered hormonal treatment because they identify as transgender.

Two things seem to be being conflated here. One is the gender critical issue, about which I have no comment, and the other is the issue of a professor making a sympathetic comment to one of his students about an Ideological disagreement between the student and her mother which the student raised with him.
Would people feel different if the student had said "I am vegan and my mother strongly does not agree with the validity of my choice."?

Ok, so we agree there are times that biological sex matters. We disagree on toilets being one of them. What are the times when you think it does matter and therefore would exclude transwomen?

No, she is a lesbian.

Women cannot be gay.
Most lesbians and gays are not bisexual
Most trans identifying people are heterosexual
as are most queer identifying people

the forced teaming damages the rights of gays and lesbians and heterosexuals

Oh no, I still consider trans women as women. I’ll happily consider them female and use whatever pronouns they’d like, which is why I don’t like the exclusionary part of the acronym. I want to include them. I just wouldn’t argue against biology, I’m aware that the biology isn’t changing. I just don’t think it matters.

The women on this thread are exactly what people think of when the word TERF is brought up though. Instantly hostile when I asked what the E stood for. Argumentative. Proud to be a TERF but also TERF is a slur. No matter what I think of sex and gender, I’d never want to be aligned with you lot. I’d like to say it’s been interesting or informative, but as always, it’s been hostile and provided zero clarity.

Actually I will share my views on gender. As possibly they are germane after all.

I don't think TWAW. But neither do I think they are all a bunch of fetishistic rapists. (Some are, just as some straight men are rapists too). But most I think are people who in good faith believe they were born into the wrong gender and struggle with that.

So I am happy to call someone a trans-woman and use their preferred name and pronouns. I won't say I believe they are a woman, or that they can ever know what it's like to have been born a woman and lived that experience.

I don't want them in women only toilets, but I believe there should be gender neutral toilets readily available, for those biological males who prefer not to use urinals, for trans identifying issues or indeed for any other issue they might have. Same for changing rooms and other traditionally single sex spaces. The patriarchy and it's horrific values makes male only spaces hostile for some men, as well as for women - these men deserve protection too. Maybe even the same for prisons. I don't want a trans-woman in a female prison, in case they are indeed a fetishistic rapist, but I also don't want them in a male prison, where they might be prey to all kinds of abuse..... So a small number of gender neutral prison places should ideally be available. There wouldn't be much geographical choice (I realise it's not financially viable to create these all over the country) so if someone asked for this, even though it would probably take them 100s of miles away from their family, it would indicate they were serious about their trans identification (or whatever other reasons made them terrified of being locked in with other men).

My position used to be a lot more hard line, TERFY even. But a few years ago it changed. And the key influence was my own daughter! She is enormously empathic and right on (something I am deeply proud of). Hates all forms of prejudice, be it racial, class based, sexuality based etc. - I don't just mean she knows it's wrong, she will genuinely take action against it, even when it is difficult or scary for her to do so....

So when I saw that she thought differently from me on the trans issue, I really decided to have a rethink..... And came to the compromise position I have just outlined, which she absolutely accepts as fair enough, and not far from her own views (as a committed feminist, just like me, she doesn't actually think TWAW, nor does she want dick-slinging twats calling themselves Kylie Big-Tits predating on vulnerable women in prisons, OF COURSE she doesn't. I strongly doubt your daughter does either, OP.

The reason I said all this? If you really want to resolve things with your daughter, OP, work out why she actually thinks you are wrong. And whether there is any flex in her position, or yours. Neither of you will benefit from being partisan or singing the company song at this point.

If you are both good people,who genuinely care for others, surely consensus is possible, regarding desired outcomes at least, even if you can't fully agree on the ideology behind them.

Good luck.

Someone who thinks that women and transwomen are different. Stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist and is therefore often used as a slur against women who are gender critical.

I don't disagree with anything you say.
All that is perfectly fine by me.

You don't think the biological meaning of 'woman' matters?

So any man can call himself a woman if he likes and get access to women's prisons, shelters, rape crisis counselling?

Really?

But the problem is that most TRAs don't want third spaces.

I’m off out now, but I can’t actually think of a time where I’d exclude trans women. I do see the argument for sport though, I sway between what I think there at different times. I don’t in toilets, as I don’t see trans women as a threat and nor do I feel vulnerable in a toilet - it’s just another room. I don’t want to force trans women out of sports and think if I accept them as women then I should be accepting of them in sports, but I can see the importance of not forcing biological women out of sports. So like I say, I do sway a bit on that. I don’t think it’s all black and white.

And we can thank Cass for that.

I've come to rather like TERF. For example -"I'm going out for a drink tonight with the Terven. Back late!" Reclaiming it. God knows some of the best nights out I've had have been with a group of Terven women of various ages. Gussie Grips's gig was a particularly highlight.

Women can be Gay because gay just means attracted to the same sex, it's most commonly used for men but lesbians are gay women

He didn't call you evil, difficult or unkind. He wasn't grooming your daughter. He expressed to her that she must find it difficult that you and she have very different views on a subject that's important to her. You don't even know what else was said because you've heard this story third-hand from your shit-stirring other daughter.

All of which to say, you're putting a lot of words into the mouth of someone you don't know, based on events you weren't privy to.

Oh no, I still consider trans women as women. I’ll happily consider them female and use whatever pronouns they’d like, which is why I don’t like the exclusionary part of the acronym. I want to include them. I just wouldn’t argue against biology, I’m aware that the biology isn’t changing. I just don’t think it matters.

@PumpkinSpiceAndEverythingNice yet a couple of pages back you said you agreed that biological sex matters. Have you changed your mind?

It is black and white, they’re men and you’re perfectly aware of that, which is why your position is inconsistent.