Feminism sold a lie - Women, today, are worse off than ever

[ConservativeC2]

Listening to the women I work with, it's been interesting to hear their views about feminism and they are not happy. We are all millennial age so not too young, not too old and I keep hearing that it's the millennial generation of women that have absolutely lost out the most.

I think feminism initially promoted some idea of independence, equality and choice. Phrases like 'men hold all the money and power' at the time were very emotive whilst not entirely true. The correct statement then (and still now) is some men hold all the money and power. Most men back in the 50s-70s worked very long hours and spent pretty much all their money on their family. It was hard for everyone, but I think women were more empowered then than now.

In contrast to today, most of the women my age have to work. Whilst feminism promotes choice, most of them do not actually have a choice today. Most men today do not earn enough to run a household which means most women have to work. The worst part is they still do a larger share of the domestic work and childcare. So I think women now have it worse than ever - it's not just me, my female colleagues feel the same way. They've come to point in life where they want to start a family but they know they will have to come back to work.

Now it's all to do with feminism. There are other factors which has driven up the cost of living (inflation, property prices, profit extraction from multinational corporates etc).

This. Goodness.

Women in most European countries couldn’t have their own bank account or get a mortgage by themselves until the 70s. The reason why women stayed in unhappy marriages was not just societal.

Citing men not being able to support a family alone (sexism?) being the reason the poor women have to work is, as you know if you think about it, absurd. There’s levels of cognitive dissonance here which are off the charts.

Your lives are demonstrably better. If you are working hard in a job instead of being at home then that on some level is a result of the choices you’ve made. The existence of those choices is a result of feminism. I’d be grateful if I were you. I know I am.

At no point in the history of mankind has the average mother devoted herself entirely to the upbringing of her offspring for at least three years to the exclusion of anything else. Women have always worked at something to help their family survive, whether that was spinning wool to make clothes and grinding seeds to make bread or being CEO of a multinational. A tiny proportion of wealthy women in the last century or so have had access to enough economic resource and labour saving gadgets that they could be a sahm rather than working in or outside the home and suddenly that’s the gold standard for being a mother? You never had the choice to be a rich wife and mother and feminism can’t give you that I’m afraid 😁 it has given you the choice to have dc on your own and the option to be able to earn your own money and spend it how you wish though.

I'm not unsympathetic to an anti capitalist stance. And I understand capitalism from a feminist perspective, ie, the harms disproportionately caused to women by capitalism. Although i do feel the 'unpaid labour to support capitalism' argument is more appropriate when applied to women in the domestic sphere than women working in the workplace, who are of course, paid. It's also not an argument that applies only to capitalist societies. Women's labour is harnessed in every societal model.
However, that's not what I was asking. You've agreed with the OP that feminism has 'sold a lie'. You have then spoken of ways women today are disadvantaged due to economic and capitalist factors. So I'm still struggling to understand why you feel its feminism that has sold the lie or disadvantaged women in any other regard?
You seem to be coming at it backwards and rather than conducting a feminist analysis of capitalism (an in the piece above) you're trying to conduct a capitalist analysis of feminism, and that's not really a thing?

I do think there is a strong tie between capitalism ( or at least how it is expressed in modern society ) and patriarchy and it’s not just based on women’s free labour

the prioritisation of money over people and planet , the greater rewards for jobs that generate money ( fancy trading algorithms) as opposed to jobs that invent new medicines - I don’t think capitalism would appear in that form if it was less patriarchal

because I think the whole childbirth business gives women a deeper insight into the human condition. And a greater respect for life - people who create / grow the humans are less likely to treat them like shit ?

Straying into differences between men and women but at least bedded in the biological experience

Women’s rights haven’t exactly soared in Russia or China if we want to look at other economic systems

but this emphasis on money is also undermining what feminism is about. Never in history has the whole population been wealthy enough to live the life they want to lead - in the past because you had to spend all your time getting food - technology has just changed how the time is spent trying to survive

it’s a very spoilt attitude - look around the world and accept we are incredibly lucky that our maternal death rates are low, women can escape abuse and have financial control, we can feed our kids and educate them, we don’t have to worry about infant mortality rates as we had 150 years ago

Exactly. Feminism has never been a promise of infinite wealth and unlimited, consequence-free choices.

It's a fight to be treated as full humans, standing on an equal legal and social footing with men. Men don't have a life free from financial contraints and difficult choices, so nor will fully liberated women.

I would say the economic disadvantages have gone on for longer, yes, but there were peaks and troughs withing my generation (x). I bought at a stable time in 1997 when it was easier to get a mortgage on low wages, etc, BUT...my sister, 5 years my senior, got caught in the negative equity trap of the boom and bust eighties/early nineties where fluctuations were massive.

I also know people who fell into the endowment trap, reached what should have been the end of their mortgage term and found they still owed a lot of money.

What I don't think younger generations appreciate about the housing market is that in actual fact, one of the causes of the boom and bust eighties and irresponsible lending on the part of the banks was Thatcher's drive to make the UK a nation of homeowners, because, in fact, prior to the eighties, far more people rented.

It wasn't as expensive to rent, though, in relative terms, I still appreciate my own first rented flat aged 18 on minimum wage on my own and know I couldn't do that now. Then again, my flat had no heating, single glazed windows, and a serious mould problem. I still loved it, though.

But how is this really linked to feminism? If the answer is that feminism has resulted in more women earning more because of greater access to higher paid careers, etc, which has then pushed the economy into an expectation of double income households, the solution is frightening, isn't it?

Bump women back down the ladder. And the trouble is, there are people who'd like to see that happen.

And I think that's what the OP is missing. Laying all, or even some of the economic problems of today at the door of a movement that massively widened women's options beyond their front door has far reaching consequences.

It's one thing to lament the COL crisis making it hard for women and look at how to change that. It's another thing entirely to point at 'feminism', which so many on this thread seem to forget has resulted in us being able to vote, have our own bank accounts, expect to be paid the same as a man for doing the same job, etc, as being a primary or even secondary 'cause' of a current problem.

The potential to lose everything we've gained (and despite what some think, we HAVE gained a lot) is what terrified me about this view.

There is, as I have said before, a lot of nostalgia for an age that never existed and a genuine lack of understanding of how bad it would be to close doors that had been opened.

feminism is bound to come under attack - firstly because living standards are falling so feminism seems less relevant - it’s not such a big problem as living standards and isn’t helping living standards ( history aside )

and secondly because falling living standards enable simplistic solutions to become popular and those tend to be right wing and it seems women are being sold a line that they can be cherished and cared for and won’t need to worry about these things any more if they would just ditch that pesky feminism

Think is that u less house prices rose disproportional as a result of feminism then if women didn’t work you would still have the problem with house prices being unaffordable

because it’s not a case of women can’t afford to stay at home / it’s much broader than that - it’s not just women with young children who are struggling with house prices - it’s pensioners who rent, it’s young single people trying to find their way in the world and leave home -

I absolutely could not agree with you more. I don't stand with the "Feminist, but only when it suits me" brigade, either.

Amen to this. What worries me is the number of people so keen to place so much reliance on someone else. Women who have acknowledged the number of men who still don't do their share in the home, nevertheless trust these men to 'keep' them.

And don't seem remotely alarmed at the number of men supporting this idea of the little wifey at home. I mean, no alarm bells there, is there?

I think what's happening is that some young women are feeling overwhelmed, because as women have taken on more historically male roles and responsibilities, men have failed to reciprocate. There are two options, continue the fight, this time on the personal level to ensure the men in their lives step up, or surrender, and say, OK, feminism tried, but men are too strong for us, so we've lost.
When life feels challenging already due to other factors, it seems easier to wave the white flag and accept a benign dictatorship over an ongoing battle for freedom. Especially if you're too young to have experienced what life was really like under the dictatorship.

@ObelixtheGaul Again, totally agree.
I've been married twice.
First husband was very wealthy as desperate for me to give up my "unimportant job - not a career" (primary teacher) and stay at home permanently to look after the kids and do all of the housework. My wages were insignificant and, moreover, "emasculated him." He also wanted full financial control and would sometimes take my purse out of my handbag if he felt I was buying anything more than the essentials.
I didn't give up my career which he didn't like and God did I need that income when I left with my two young sons and he'd changed the locks, literally within hours. I slowly built my life back up.
I'm now remarried to a man who works in social care (very, very proud of the work he does and the difference he makes). He has supported me every step of the way and we are absolutely a team. We share everything - rent, bills, childcare, housework and so on.
My husband absolutely respects and supports my feminist values and that is
strongly reflected within our marriage. I personally have not, and never will, put up with a partner who fails to do so, regardless of how rich he may be.

University back then was much more limited, telling me it was free when I couldn't go is pretty insulting.

I'm not sure how you are working out salaries being relative to inflation. As I was earning half what a man doing the same job inflation was tough. We didn't have NMW either so sometimes you'd go a long time before you got a pay rise.

Given at times inflation and mortgage interest rates beat 15% no salaries didn’t increase in line with- that’s why the winter of discontent happened - when the lights were not kept on

then the repossession crisis when so many lost their homes and the money they had invested in them - I was impressed that in 2008 the (Labour?) government managed to avoid repeating that in the banking crisis

instead of thinking that others had things better, and giving into self pity , think instead how to work together to make things better

We tried, he lived in a flat share with two other guys Monday to Friday and was home weekends. I was at home with kids, dogs and full-time job. I was prepared to carry on but economically it just wasn't worth it, the cost of journeys home, costs for flat and financially we might have broken even but overall were probably worse off. We thought with the extra money we could save up and eventually move but prices were rising, we found savings his pay rise was a pipedream.

If we could have done it we'd be so much better off now, house in the SE to sell for retirement, higher pension but it wasn't to be.

It’s a shame. It is hard. I can’t imagine being on minimum wage down here.

Well maybe it isn't luck, maybe it's how I brought up my sons and obviously their sister didn't want a man who didnt measure up to her brothers. Actually it's rather patronising to just say oh it's luck. Maybe a lot of people to take some responsibility.

No, I do not mean to be patronising. I have a lot of female friends, 30s, wonderful women. Single. Can’t find a good man. I’m pleased you raised your sons well, but it’s also not always down to parenting alone. I do think stars need to align sometimes to find a good relationship… I don’t think it’s patronising to say that, it’s the reality for most people. Both men and women looking for partners.

Are you allowed to vote?
Can you open a bank account or credit card in your own name?
Do you have the right to say no to your husband?
Are you protected from being sacked just because you got pregnant or (in the case of teachers) because you got married?
Do you expect to be paid the same as your male colleague who has the same job title and experience as you and not significantly less because you're female?

If the answer to these is yes then feminism has definitely made your life better

Mm. Not sure about that. Because if as women we're going to take the praise for good men, are we going to be blamed for bad ones? We are the primary influence on our sons only until they start school. Not even necessarily that long if they have fathers in their lives. And while we can do our best to instil values, our sons are as much raised by their peers, male role models and Internet content as they are by their mothers. I think we do our best with the influence we have and then keep our fingers crossed they make friendships, interests and choices that align with our values.

I think that's a fair point in re: overwhelm. It makes it easier to gloss over the past, to imagine things were better, when the past is another country in which some of us never lived at all.

It's a lie we buy, not dissimilar to the one of the perfect life in the country, or abroad. Rose-tinted spectacles.

How dreadful that you had that experience, and I am glad your life isn't like that now.

Oh yes, but if it wasn’t for feminism, every single woman married to a man on minimum wage would live in a four bedroom detached house, drive a Range Rover, and flit from Pilates to her nail appointment whilst a definitely-not-female army of cleaners, nannies and housekeepers sorted out her beautiful home.

That’s exactly how it was for literally everyone in the 70s, just in shades of orange and brown.

That's why I said lots of people have to take responsibility. Certainly parents play a big part in bringing up their sons and daughters to understand what a good relationship looks like, when they are old enough those and daughters have to live the values they were brought up with.

To be clear I never said it was all down to mothers.

Just to add yes I do take credit for my part in how they have turned out, their father did his bit as did grandparents, particularly my mother, schools, scouts, guides etc but yes I did what I needed to do and it wasn't always easy.