To wonder where the left has gone?

[KenAdams]

Ironically, this is somewhat of a rant.

Is everyone too scared to stand up to the constant hate filled rants for fear of being called "woke"?

Is the constant inference that VAWG is only perpetrated by brown men not worth standing up to?

Is the rhetoric that all of our problems are caused only by small boats and not legal migration or billionaires not problematic? For the record, I believe it is a problem, but not the only problem and not even the biggest problem. I believe the system is the problem.

The increasingly hostile movement against anyone that is non white is making people fearful of going about their every day lives and people seem to just want to sit on the sidelines and refuse to call it out.

Where is everyone?

I feel like this post might turn into a gaslighting shit show, but fuck it, I've had enough.

Because being liberal / leftist has driven this country to the cesspit it currently is .

Yes but the key detail that you are leaving out is that these people’s lives have been improved dramatically by immigration. Better food, wider range of choices in clothing, alternative forms of religious worship if spirituality is what you’re looking for. These are all things people take for granted now but they wouldn’t have existed in the early 20th century.

@KenAdams SUTR = Stand Up to Racism (a total misnomer if you ask me but there you go, this is life at the moment)

I believe they're an arm of the socialist workers something or other. They are very active.

There's also demonstrations going on by a group calling themselves "women against the far right" or some such.

I could name loads of other left-wing commentators on social media, with a very large following. not to mention that almost every Labour MP is on social media

There are other mainstream podcasts etc

I don't really want to name anything because... the left-wing are very much my nemesis at the moment.

They shouldn't be, but that's where we are.

I certainly see a balance of all points of view.

The left just seem to be high on their own ‘righteousness’ - if we listen to Swift, they don’t even want us to have access to democracy and certainly not free speech.

So if white working class people say that the behaviour of a specific demographic is making them and their teenage daughters feel unsafe and uncomfortable because of their behaviour, would you hear that?

What if middle class white people experience a similar feeling with the same source? Will they be heard?

How long has it been happening in your town? The “billeting” of new people I mean.

I'm a WC woman who lives in a town with a hotel housing migrants, so not only would I listen and hear, I do listen and hear.
What I've heard so far pretty much amounts to people worried about what the migrants 'might do' based on things they've heard. Which for women and girls is pretty valid given the media attention given to crimes from this group and the fact men of all ethnicities pose a risk to women and girls. Feeling unsafe tends to go with the territory, especially in less affluent parts of town. Always did, before the hotel.
I've not really heard any examples of concerning behaviour actually happening, and i doubt they would be overlooked by the local FB group, who operate a high level of scrutiny and are desperate to be proved right.
Prople tend to say "I bet it's them from (hotel name)" whenever there's an instance of petty crime. Which swiftly becomes "it was them..." as these things do.
My response is to suggest they report anything they witness to the police.
My response would be the same whatever the social class of the person.

You’ve obviously lucked out and ended up with a hotel full of doctors and nuclear physicists all doing amazing things for humanity in their spare time. Good for you.

I was asking about the people who have actually suffered though - the man posted on another thread who has watched crowds of migrant men harassing teenage girls in the street and filming kids in the playpark. Not to mention the growing tally of rapes and murders.

Remember the Egyptian terrorist (who came in on a small boat) who raped a woman in Hyde Park - are you actually suggesting that the cause of her trauma is social inequality?

Are you suggesting that the villages like Crick in Northamptonshire are ‘less affluent’ and that’s why the locals are upset about the behaviour of crowds of migrant men?

https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/news/crime/northamptonshire-villagers-say-they-are-extremely-concerned-with-nearby-hotel-housing-asylum-seekers-5261501

Villagers plead for curfew after ‘rowdy’ migrants take over parks at night

I mildly and factually gave you an account of my experience.
I understand it may not be what you want to hear from a WC woman on the subject, but I've as much right for my inconvenient account to be 'heard' without sarcasm and disingenuous pretence I said something I didn't, as any other WC person. Unless you're trying to prove your own point about us not being listened to.
I didn't for a moment suggest the men in my local hotel were professionals of good character. I have no idea having never spoken to them or indeed know anyone else who has. They're rarely seen, which is probably wise in a community primed and ready to 'have a go' should they offend.
I find accounts of women and children being abused and assaulted horrifying. However I personally have not had a woman disclose abuse or assault by a migrant to me. If she did, I would believe her, as I always believe women.
I genuinely don't understand why you are asking me if the cause of a raped woman's trauma is social inequality. Its a stupid and offensive statement you've made up, so why on earth would I think it?
Similarly the statement about Crick. No that's not what I'm saying, because again, you've made it up.
If you want to debate this with me, politely, could you focus on what I've actually said rather than pulling random statements out of your own imagination to ask me if I 'think that..'?
Because for the avoidance of doubt, if I think something, I'll say it. I don't need you to put words in my mouth.

No. But you can look for yourself. Ann Russell on Tik Tok or you tube.

Why would I want to watch someone who cleans on TikTok for economic advise?

Because she’s a very very smart woman with with wide ranging knowledge. You think cleaners can’t be highly intelligent and well informed?

She not giving ‘economic advice’ btw.

Anyway, go and listen before you judge.

I genuinely don't understand why you are asking me if the cause of a raped woman's trauma is social inequality. Its a stupid and offensive statement you've made up, so why on earth would I think it?

Maybe you could clarify your earlier post (below) then because it read very much like that alongside your further reiterations.

I'm drawing a distinction between listening to people speak about their experiences and identifying the cause of that experience. Right wing people identify the cause as being immigration. Left wing people identify the cause as being wealth and class inequality.

You sounded like you don’t think there is a problem with migrants in hotels because you haven’t personally experienced a problem or personally spoken to anyone that has. I was asking about the people who HAVE experienced a problem as you seemed to be dismissing it as them imagining they have a problem with migrants when really they have a problem with living in a run down area.

You also appear to be claiming that wc people are being manipulated into blaming immigrants and are mistaken. I was asking about the ones that clearly are not mistaken. Do you acknowledge them?

WC and low income people are disadvantaged because resources are disproportionately in the hands of the privileged. They are not adequately rewarded for their labour and they face barriers to accessing opportunities gatekept for the already advantaged.
For this reason when there is a problem Iike poorly executed approaches to migration they are at the sharp end, as they are with any other problem.
However this is a symptom of their hardship not the cause. WC people voting for right wing parties may find this one symptom alleviated, but the price for this will be that the true illness will become much worse.

Maybe read back over your posts and see how dismissive they sound?

But surely you have done a sense check in her numbers before posting here (obviously we wouldn’t just swallow any old nonsense we see on YouTube would we), so would be able to at least summarise her workings and assumptions?

Cleaning is a WC job. The WC should only be listened to when they're saying things that suit the right wing agenda. If they step out of their lane and venture to opine on matters considered beyond the remit of the lower classes, it's fair game to use their job to belittle and sneer at them.

I'm saying that WC people live in unsafe neighbourhoods because of class and wealth inequality. That this was the case prior to Immigrants being housed there and would continue to be the case if there was no immigration. I do believe that WC are being manipulated into seeing immigrants as a scapegoat, yes.
I understand that some WC people feel Immigrants make their neighbourhoods feel more unsafe, and of course I acknowledge that, as I did in my previous post.
However to put so much focus on this that you would vote for a right wing party as a WC person is in my view a mistake.
Because even in the unlikely event that party manages to get rid of all migrants, and does keep you safe from a specific group of men that needs to be balanced against what will be lost with a government which will also systematically destroy the safety nets we as WC people are more likely to need.
Holding a different view from another WC person doesn't make me dismissive of WC people. Believing that some WC people are wrong to pin all the blame for their lack of safety on immigrants is not the same as dismissing their fears for their safety.

cleaning by itself is no reason to assume they know anything about economics. I am still unclear why you think I should take economic advice off anyone on TikTok - be they a cleaner or a professor of Beijing University’s art department.

I didn't suggest you should take economic advice from the woman, neither did PP. She simply mentioned there was a woman who had some views on the subject she found of interest. Cue sneering at the fact that a cleaner could possibly have anything of value to say on a subject that every other fool and his dog seem to feel entitled to an opinion on.
Just struck me as ironic amongst all this faux respect for the views of the WC.

But you still haven’t explained why this person is someone I should listen to about economics. I wasn’t sneering because she was a cleaner, I was asking why I should listen to someone who apparently makes TikTok videos on cleaning on economic matters? What expertise do they have on economics that makes their economic data more reliable than government data?

I haven't 'explained why you should listen to her' because I'm not the person who recommended her. However the PP says she has interesting things to say. I'm assuming you're not a demographer or policy analysist, but here we are chatting about immigration.

@5128gap
Because even in the unlikely event that party manages to get rid of all migrants, and does keep you safe from a specific group of men that needs to be balanced against what will be lost with a government which will also systematically destroy the safety nets we as WC people are more likely to need.

This is exactly why we need the political left to address immigration. We shouldn't have to balance out the destruction of our communities via inappropriate migration with the destruction caused by right-wing government. Why are so many hellbent on making it this choice? We could strengthen the safety nets, actually give a shit about WC people in terms of jobs and housing and social spaces, AND address migration!

I think your focus on class is a bit of a red herring.

I believe that it’s more that many WC people have been able to tolerate the issues of their neighbourhoods - they are familiar with them and largely know how to avoid or deal with them. Then adding an asylum hotel is the straw that breaks the camels back.

Your WC theory doesn’t take into account the middle class people who feel threatened by the residents of asylum hotels though? It’s not only working class urban neighbourhoods that are affected. It’s small villages and ‘nicer’ areas too.

I haven’t discussed my voting plans. However, with reference to your assumptions on others voting plans, if I felt that an asylum hotel added to my already difficult life and Labour were telling me I’m a racist bigot for complaining and as Angela Rayner was doing, planning to make it worse, I’d be gravitating towards a political party who doesn’t call me a racist bigot and agrees that it’s a problem that needs sorting.

Yes that is absolutely what's needed. Unfortunately it's not a problem easy to resolve as no government has managed it and I've yet to see a solution suggested by anyone that sounds viable.

I've focused on class in response to the harnessing of the 'WC experience' by posters to support their own stance. Which is the part of the debate I find interesting (and irritating) for the reasons I've given repeatedly. These threads typically involve posters going off on a frolic of their own about how 'WC people feel' and I felt I wanted to share my experience from the 'coal face' as it were. Because the people throwing bricks at hotels and painting George crosses on islands are not representative of us all.
Many of us are more concerned about making ends meet, poor opportunities for ourselves and our children, the depletion of state funded services we need because we can't afford a private alternative, landlords charging us extortionate rents to increase their wealth etc, than we are about immigrants in a hotel who barely show their faces, being for the most part more frightened of the indigenous community that outnumber them multiple times, than the community has reason to be of them.
If MC people are worried by migration then i feel it's more useful for them to speak for themselves than through the medium of a WC stereotype.
For the record, I'm actually not pro immigration, and do not think a concern about immigration is of itself bigotry or racism.
I do think immigration concerns have been used as a gateway to push a racist and right wing agenda, and I do dislike the weaponisation and manipulatiom of the WC to do this.
Not least because not all WC people are white, and POC are feeling the impact of emboldened racists, which is dividing WC communities and making people feel unsafe from each other, never mind the men in the hotel.

Can someone explain to
me why, in the 60s, my grandparents who were a factory worker and a cleaner could afford to rent a (small) terraced family house.

Nowadays two people on minimum wage would come nowhere near as close.

If we are to welcome more
people to the UK, the demand rises and the price goes up.

If the government is going to welcome migrants, they need to build, build, build otherwise the already obscene rent prices will rise even further.